# Apprentic 10/28/04 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 28, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675 "2004-10-28T15:09:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/41 "2004-10-29T02:34:48Z")
Kevin’s dressing down of Elizabeth was awesomw. It was forceful but it wasn’t bullying or mean. I really got sense he was trying to help her and not just be a dick. Kevin is one of the few reality contestants I’ve seen who seems completely unaffected and real on camera. He never seems phony or calculating, he speaks his mind, he holds to hsi own principles no matter what everyone else thinks, he doesn’t seem obsessed with his own self-preservation in the game and just projects a certain basic decency and trustworthiness. He’s neither a backstabber nor a patsy. I think he’s one of the strongest contenders in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/42 "2004-10-29T02:37:12Z")
Yes, I too like Kevin. Think he’ll win it all? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/43 "2004-10-29T02:37:59Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Was Kelly the one who gave the presentation? Is that the power move you mean? I didn’t catch how he came to be the one who did that rather than Andy. Yeah, Kelly confronted Andy and said he wanted to be the one to give the pitch. He was trying to seem “commanding” but Andy handled it pretty well. He let Kelly do the pitch in a “let the baby have his bottle” sort of way but did not allow Kelly to intimidate him or really win the dick measuring contest. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/44 "2004-10-29T02:39:46Z")
> [@Jurhael](#): > > Yes, I too like Kevin. Think he’ll win it all? I think he’s definitely a contender. He never gives anyone a reason to scapegoat him for a task and he handles himself very well in the boardroom. Has he benn PM yet? I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/45 "2004-10-29T02:43:39Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > He resisted stalwartly, in his little Andy way. This made me laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. In his little Andy way, Andy kicked a lot of booty tonight. He really executed well, from the concept work to the filming to the editing to the presentation. He even seemed to have a hand in picking the music and did that really well too. Go Andy! I think he may have saved himself right through to the last rounds tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/46 "2004-10-29T02:43:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think he’s definitely a contender. He never gives anyone a reason to scapegoat him for a task and he handles himself very well in the boardroom. > > Has he benn PM yet? I don’t remember. Did he lose the toys one? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/47 "2004-10-29T02:46:36Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Was Kelly the one who gave the presentation? Is that the power move you mean? I didn’t catch how he came to be the one who did that rather than Andy. Who was Kelly speaking with when this conversation happened: Somebody: Andy is a good choice to give the presentation. He’s smart and has debating skills. Kelly: That would be good except this isn’t a debate. _I_ am the one with all the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/48 "2004-10-29T02:50:04Z")
Was it my imagination or did Maria say that in order to add “sex appeal” to their ad campaign, they should include a Hummer? If she did say that, was she referring to the military vehicle, the crappy SUV that has nothing to do with the military vehicle but is called a Hummer anyway, or the oral sex technique? Well, no matter which one she meant, it was a spectacularly stupid idea. Ever seen a military Humvee trying to navigate the streets of Manhattan? Not sexy. It looks like a blood clot. And major props to Andy and Mosaic. I thought it was an excellent campaign by any standard. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/49 "2004-10-29T02:50:00Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Not only wanted to veto it, recruited Kevin to stay up all night and work with her on a new campaign – which she repudiated in the morning. Kevin explained the facts of life to her but she was totally deaf to everything he said. I loved how she “really loved” the idea and “wasn’t going to change [her] mind”. Riiight. When Deutsch first said to hit 'em “here” and talked about the ads being emotionally driven, I thought everyone was going to jump on the 9/11 theme. I’m glad neither of the teams went that route; it would have seemed so cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Silver\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Fire)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/50 "2004-10-29T02:52:02Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Who was Kelly speaking with when this conversation happened: > Somebody: Andy is a good choice to give the presentation. He’s smart and has debating skills. > > Kelly: That would be good except this isn’t a debate. _I_ am the one with all the experience. The pretty blonde chick. Umm, the other Jennifer? He’s a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/51 "2004-10-29T02:54:48Z")
Elizabeth was completely useless, I agree. But she had this Marcia Brady thing going on, including the meltdowns under pressure. Brought me back to my childhood. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/52 "2004-10-29T02:58:08Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Did he [Kevin] lose the toys one? Toys was (were?) week one – Pamela and Bradford were the PMs. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/53 "2004-10-29T02:59:02Z")
Lesson from the task: Pay attention to the objective. When an advertising campaign is supposed to have heart, go for the pathos. Apex’s campaign was hard-hitting. Mosaic’s campaign was _heart_-hitting. No contest there. Lesson from the firing: When your project team goes into open mutiny, in the middle of the task, you’ve been a poor leader. I knew Elizabeth was going to get the axe when Apex lost the task. I’m astounded (and somewhat impressed) that Trump didn’t bother with a second boardroom session. Elizabeth wanted to know why her team turned on her in the boardroom? Because they had turned on her during the task, that’s why. She just didn’t get it. She was not in accord with her team, at any point. That’s a sure ticket off the show. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/54 "2004-10-29T03:08:00Z")
Pretty much saw this one coming all episode. There’s no other way that could have gone down. **Scuba\_Ben** hit in on the head----if they turn on you during the task, you’d better make sure you pack _everything_ before going to the boardroom, cause you’re not coming back. I wasn’t surprised Trump didn’t bother bringing them back into the boardroom. There really was no point. My husband wants to know why the fired person never gives their former teammates the finger when they’re all getting into the elevator to go up to the suite. If ever there was a time I thought it might happen, tonight was it. Did anyone else laugh out loud during Apex’s TV commercial, when the “troops” were running in that weird, weird way? It just looked so odd to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/55 "2004-10-29T03:11:55Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > My husband wants to know why the fired person never gives their former teammates the finger when they’re all getting into the elevator to go up to the suite. If ever there was a time I thought it might happen, tonight was it. IIRC, last week Stacy refused to shake Wes’s hand in parting. I think that’s as close as NBC will actually air to the fired person flipping off the survivors. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/56 "2004-10-29T03:29:27Z")
Where’s the Raj ratings??? Elizabeth is gone and this time, she didn’t have Stacie J to blame. Did anyone else think it was weird that Jenn and Ivana confronted Wes about offering Elizabeth advice? My opinion of Jenn kinda went down on that one; if you;re confident enough that your team leader sucks and you can prove it, any advice she gets from elsewhere shouldn’t concern you. Besides being none of your business. I expect that sort of confrontational bullshit from Ivana, but Jenn? Are _all_ the women hopeless? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/57 "2004-10-29T03:52:16Z")
That was the most pathetic firing ever. Poor widdle Elizabeth didn’t even make a good villain. She was just a hapless ineffectual victim. I’m so embarrassed for my gender. ---
**Author:** ![annieclaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@annieclaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annieclaus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/58 "2004-10-29T03:53:12Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Lesson from the firing: When your project team goes into open mutiny, in the middle of the task, you’ve been a poor leader. I knew Elizabeth was going to get the axe when Apex lost the task. I’m astounded (and somewhat impressed) that Trump didn’t bother with a second boardroom session. > > Elizabeth wanted to know why her team turned on her in the boardroom? Because they had turned on her during the task, that’s why. She just didn’t get it. She was not in accord with her team, at any point. That’s a sure ticket off the show. But don’t you wish the Apex team members actually had the cojones to mutiny? That would have been really, really shocking. They should have just gone together to Carolyn or George, whichever viceroy was babysitting them, and said, “that’s it! We quit! We cannot function with Elizabeth as our project manager!” And then let the chips fall as they may. I would have respected them much more had they done that. Their idea sucked. Their advertising sucked. But that really wasn’t the point in this episode, was it? ---
**Author:** ![MaceMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@MaceMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaceMan)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/59 "2004-10-29T04:26:11Z")
If it’s true that not one other person on Elizabeth’s team could see what an obviously bad idea the military theme was, or come up with any other viable ideas, then I think they all deserved to be fired. Personally, I think Raj is most at fault for this failure. Yes, Elizabeth is a poor leader and incapable of standing up to stronger personalities, but no one else really stepped up to help out. Except for Kevin, who is about the only person I still respect on her team. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675/60 "2004-10-29T04:37:55Z")
Yes, Kevin gets major points for being the only one to try his best to win, and for understanding that a loss, even if it isn’t “your fault”, still reflects badly on all team members. Just because you’re not the one to get fired doesn’t mean you can’t still look bad. This is another one of those things that no one on this show seems to get. Everytime someone escapes a boardroom session alive, they seem to think that they’re all in the clear. What putz’s. Putzes. Whatever. And Maria - sex appeal? WTF? Last week she was tottering around the park in stilettos. I think it’s time for her to start thinking outside the box. Hee hee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentic-10-28-04/271675.md?page=4)