# "Apprentice" finale -- 12/15/05 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 15, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721 "2005-12-15T14:57:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/161 "2005-12-21T20:45:48Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Why is it so crucial that Randal validate Rebecca’s worth anyway? It isn’t. Trump already did that. The question itself validated her worth. > [@](#): > > Why would it be so bad if he didn’t think she should be hired at all and just doesn’t want to come out and say it? Because that’s what Marcus would have done. Or Clay. Or Jim from Martha’s show. Coyness has never been a sought after attribute. > [@](#): > > Can’t he just win without having to kiss his rival’s ass? That Randal is somehow expected to make all these feel-good overtures to someone he competed against and beat strikes me a unfair. I think that’s what you keep missing or, if not, glossing over. The overture _had already been made_. > [@](#): > > I believe Randal doesn’t think Rebecca deserves a job with Trump, but he didn’t want to say that because his main issue was not her lack of competence but rather Trump’s attempt to dilute his win with a two-fer. By saying what he did, he was able to state his case for why the finale should have only one winner without diminishing Rebecca on national TV. The question to hire Rebecca or not to hire Rebecca was sort of besides the point, for Randal. The question of concern to him was _when_, and that came through loud and clear. As was said early on, it is not a dilution of one’s own success when he uses it to lift up others. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/162 "2005-12-21T21:32:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It isn’t. Trump already did that. The question itself validated her worth. By Trump, yes, in an indirect, wishy-washy kind of way. Certainly if Trump was so certain that Rebecca was worthy, he would have hired her himself and not foisted the job on a subordinate under the guise of seeking an honest opinion. Yes? > [@](#): > > Because that’s what Marcus would have done. Or Clay. Or Jim from Martha’s show. Coyness has never been a sought after attribute. Neither is playing Mr. Nice Guy who agrees with everything just to make his boss happy. And we have no idea what those other guys would have said, but I suspect they would have been a lot more brutal towards Rebecca (especially Jim and Clay). Why is that better? > [@](#): > > I think that’s what you keep missing or, if not, glossing over. The overture _had already been made_. You keep focusing on Randal’s lack of tact while ignoring the bad position that Trump put both he and Rebecca in. Yes, an overture had been made, but in a shady, spineless kind of way that was ultimately tied to the decision of someone who, not less than five minutes before, had been explaining to the world why Rebecca shouldn’t be hired. Now does that make any sense? Trump obviously wasn’t paying attention to a damn thing either contestant was saying all night, or he would have known that Randal would not have _wanted_ to agree to a double-hire even if that’s what he ended up doing. The truth is, he probably did know but just didn’t care. He wanted to have his two-fer and he was going to compell Randal to give it to him by banking on his “niceness”. > [@](#): > > As was said early on, it is not a dilution of one’s own success when he uses it to lift up others. Only if you don’t think The Apprentice is first and foremost a competition. Randal apparantely sees it as a competition (can you really blame him?), which is why he reacted the way he did. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/163 "2005-12-21T22:28:43Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > By Trump, yes, in an indirect, wishy-washy kind of way. Certainly if Trump was so certain that Rebecca was worthy, he would have hired her himself and not foisted the job on a subordinate under the guise of seeking an honest opinion. Yes? Hardly wishy-washy. His praise for her was ebullient. So was Randall’s. > [@](#): > > is playing Mr. Nice Guy who agrees with everything just to make his boss happy. And we have no idea what those other guys would have said, but I suspect they would have been a lot more brutal towards Rebecca (especially Jim and Clay). Why is that better? It isn’t. If it were, I’d advocate it. Instead, I advocate straightforward honesty. If he thinks she’s unqualified, he should say so. Why tag Donald with “wishy-washy” if you’re going to let Randall get away with thinking she’s unfit to hire, but refusing to come right out and say it? Isn’t that wishy-washy of him as well? > [@](#): > > You keep focusing on Randal’s lack of tact while ignoring the bad position that Trump put both he and Rebecca in. Yes, an overture had been made, but in a shady, spineless kind of way that was ultimately tied to the decision of someone who, not less than five minutes before, had been explaining to the world why Rebecca shouldn’t be hired. Now does that make any sense? Trump obviously wasn’t paying attention to a damn thing either contestant was saying all night, or he would have known that Randal would not have _wanted_ to agree to a double-hire even if that’s what he ended up doing. The truth is, he probably did know but just didn’t care. He wanted to have his two-fer and he was going to compell Randal to give it to him by banking on his “niceness”. Some people apparently weren’t paying attention the whole season. This wasn’t something that came out of the shade. There was an enormous amount of chatter about the possibility of hiring two people. It wouldn’t surprise me if Randall didn’t see it coming. After all, he has a knack for burying himself in minutiae while people scuttle all around him getting things done and trying to explain things to him. Look, I don’t know why this has to be cast as Randall being a helpless doormat while the evil Donald cackles his way into a fun evening of torture. He didn’t need Randall’s advice or consent to hire Rebecca. Blaming him for this debacle is like blaming the maid that you’re a slob. He gave Randall a golden opportunity to be magnanimous, and if there is any sour residue from the evening, it is all because of Randall, not Donald. > [@](#): > > Only if you don’t think The Apprentice is first and foremost a competition. Randal apparantely sees it as a competition (can you really blame him?), which is why he reacted the way he did. Then he lost. What does it profit a man to win the battle if he loses the war? Yes, he has the job. But it comes with baggage that will haunt him for quite some time. There will be no interview, no conversation, no discussion with or about him that does not raise this issue in some form or other. He will always be remembered as the first Apprentus. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/164 "2005-12-21T23:25:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Hardly wishy-washy. His praise for her was ebullient. So why didn’t he hire her? If he thought she was so terrific, he should have hired her with or without Randal’s opinion. Do you think that had this been an interview in the real world, Trump would have allowed the opinion of an freshy hatched underling to \* trump his own? > [@](#): > > Instead, I advocate straightforward honesty. If he thinks she’s unqualified, he should say so. Knowing that he had all of 30 seconds to answer before the closing credits rolled, he chose to express his most pressing concern and leave Rebecca’s worthiness out of it. That’s not being dishonest or coy at all. The question was whether Rebecca should be hired also. Randal said no, and then explained why he felt that way. There was no reason for him to talk about Rebecca’s qualifications when the question didn’t require him to do so. > [@](#): > > Why tag Donald with “wishy-washy” if you’re going to let Randall get away with thinking she’s unfit to hire, but refusing to come right out and say it? Isn’t that wishy-washy of him as well? No (see above response). Trump’s wishy-washiness is best evident when he said (and I paraphrase) “I could have been convinced, but okay.” It certainly didn’t take much to get Trump to give up on Rebecca, now did it? > [@](#): > > It wouldn’t surprise me if Randall didn’t see it coming. After all, he has a knack for burying himself in minutiae while people scuttle all around him getting things done and trying to explain things to him. **Liberal** , the next time the finale airs, watch it. You’ll see that Randal is very much aware of Trump’s scheme; it is evident in how he argues his case in the boardroom (why else make the interviewees who thought he should be the _sole_ and _single_ apprentice stand?). Obviously you missed this the first time, and this little bit that you just wrote makes for good irony. > [@](#): > > Look, I don’t know why this has to be cast as Randall being a helpless doormat while the evil Donald cackles his way into a fun evening of torture. \*\*He didn’t need Randall’s advice or consent to hire Rebecca. \*\* I know, right? So why did he pretend like he was actually seeking it? Talk about being coy. > [@](#): > > Blaming him for this debacle is like blaming the maid that you’re a slob. He gave Randall a golden opportunity to be magnanimous, and if there is any sour residue from the evening, it is all because of Randall, not Donald. This is the crux of our disagreement. Donald was doing no one any favors here. For Randal, he was put in the situation where he could potentially be compromising his own beliefs and values for the sake of making the boss look good. Even if he had said yes to Rebecca being hired, it’s not exactly a good way to start off one’s tenure, feeling like a people-pleasing pushover in a world of cutthroat businessmen. For Rebecca, she was put in the position of being either accepted or rejected at the whim of her recent rival, instead of receiving what’s owed to her by the interviewer she’s been trying to impress for the past 13 weeks. So even if she had been hired, it would not have exactly been a good way to inspire her confidence and trust. That’s a lose-lose situation. If this scene had played out in the real world, would you consider Trump to be blameless? If your would-be boss seemed really interested in hiring you as a dancer but allowed the call to be made by the same guy you had gone head-to-head against at the audition, would you be pleased with the boss? Of course not! I’d consider such a person to be cowardly. > [@](#): > > Then he lost. What does it profit a man to win the battle if he loses the war? Yes, he has the job. But it comes with baggage that will haunt him for quite some time. There will be no interview, no conversation, no discussion with or about him that does not raise this issue in some form or other. Regardless of how he answerered the question, Randal would have had to confront the Rebecca Question. That’s why it was wrong of Trump to have asked that question. - Pun unintended ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/165 "2005-12-21T23:26:49Z")
Ya’ll are still talking about this? I heard Randall on NPR yesterday. Ed Gordon asked him about the whole Rebecca issue and Randall basically said that he felt a little put out by it all. He said that as far as he was concerned, that moment was the only thing he would take back. Not the basis of what he said, but the way it came out. But he did repeat what **you with the face** said earlier, about him having to work so unusually hard to convince Trump of his worthiness over Rebecca. He felt that Trump should have not had any doubts about who the true “winner” was as soon as the results of the final tasks came back One may argue that this is arrogant way of looking at things, but hey…he’s right . By asking about hiring Rebecca, Randall felt like Trump was revealing the extent of his indecision. People don’t want to be hired based on the luck of a coin toss. They want to be hired because their new employer REALLY REALLY wants them. But enough of all of that… He also said he was really excited about his new job and said something sweet about his wife being his equal partner in all of his success. I just know he’s going to do well. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/166 "2005-12-21T23:32:56Z")
Oh yeah, he also reminded the listening audience that he had said “_tonight_”, as in “She shouldn’t be hired _tonight_, but maybe at a more appropriate time.” I don’t know why people don’t think that’s what he meant. The guy has been pretty cool the whole season and suddenly he transforms into a jerk? Give him a break. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/167 "2005-12-22T01:30:45Z")
Here’s the [link](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5062699) to the interview. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/168 "2005-12-22T02:26:46Z")
The recap on TWOP has an [excellent take](http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=125&story=8676&page=24&sort=&limit=) on the whole thing which I think really gets to the heart of the matter and explains why a guy like Randal would react the way he did after being called the winner and then having it taken away from him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721/169 "2005-12-22T02:32:08Z")
The recap on TWOP has an [excellent take](http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=125&story=8676&page=24&sort=&limit=) on the whole thing which I think really gets to the heart of the matter and explains why a guy like Randal would react the way he did after being called the winner and then having it taken away from him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apprentice-finale-12-15-05/335721.md?page=8)