# Aquatic ape out of date **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818 "2007-06-05T11:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iouatp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e9a140/32.png) [@iouatp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iouatp)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/1 "2007-06-05T11:46:02Z")
[Aquatic ape response](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/maquaticape.html) is out of date. There is a broken link at the bottom of the page that should point to [here](http://www.aquaticape.org/). Also a critique of that critique might be worth pointing to, which can be found [here](http://www.riverapes.com/AAH/Arguments/JimMoore/JMHome.htm). ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/2 "2007-06-05T12:57:07Z")
That “critique of that critique” would be more impressive if it were written in literate English (the word “infamous” does not mean what the author apparently thinks it does), and if it did not use the old Wegener whine. (Wegener had one correct idea – that the continents move – and several completely wrong theories built around it; when the theory of plate tectonics was developed – _not_ by Wegener – it was accepted immediately.) In fact, the whole “critique” is nothing but the usual cry of “They’re being big ol’ _meanies!_” that is the Nuclear Deterrent of loonies everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/3 "2007-06-05T13:26:13Z")
Thanks, **iouatp** , we’ll fix the broken link. And welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, glad to have you with us. It will be up to the author, **bibliophage** , whether he wants to add the other link you’ve provided. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/4 "2007-06-05T17:32:37Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] That “critique of that critique” would be more impressive if it were written in literate English (the word “infamous” does not mean what the author apparently thinks it does), and if it did not use the old Wegener whine. (Wegener had one correct idea – that the continents move – and several completely wrong theories built around it; when the theory of plate tectonics was developed – _not_ by Wegener – it was accepted immediately.) In fact, the whole “critique” is nothing but the usual cry of “They’re being big ol’ _meanies!_” that is the Nuclear Deterrent of loonies everywhere. [/QUOTE] What’s wrong with the use of “infamous” in that article? (I presume you’re talking about the first sentence of the article.) “Infamous” means “ill-reputed,” right? That seems to be what the author means by the term. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/5 "2007-06-05T20:00:47Z")
It looks completely correct in context to me as well. > [@](#): > > Considering that the so-called Aquatic Ape Hypothesis is so well known (or perhaps infamous might be a better term) there is surprisingly little about it in the scientific literature. It contrasts infamous, [known widely and usually unfavorably](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infamous), against well known. Good choice of words, in other words. There is no Wegener whine either that I see. On the [Wegener page](http://www.riverapes.com/AAH/Arguments/JimMoore/wegener.htm), the author merely comments on why Morgan used Wegener as an analogy. And he makes exactly the point the JWK makes, leading me to think that JWK saw the link but didn’t bother to read the actual page. Nothing about that increases the chances of the AAH hypothesis being true. The chances are certainly zero. But false criticism works against the defenders of science and makes the complainants more defensive. It’s both wrong and counter-productive, a bad combination. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/6 "2007-06-07T01:39:23Z")
“Infamous” means having an _exceedingly_ bad reputation, a downright nasty reputation, a hateful reputation. To use it merely to mean “unpopular in some circles” is an act of wanton verbicide. And it _does_ use the Wegener whine, and, furthermore, defends its use. “Oh, that Jim Moore is so nasty – insisting on facts and logic! Lions! Murder! Fascists! It’s not fair!” Frankly, the whole thing turns my stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/7 "2007-06-07T02:19:37Z")
Infamous, like most words in the English language, has more than one meaning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/8 "2007-06-07T19:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Infamous, like most words in the English language, has more than one meaning. [/QUOTE] I dare say it does, but “unpopular in some circles” is not one of them. It’s a _nasty_ word, an insulting word. One of its definitions is “of a crime, sufficiently heinous as to cause the perpetrator to lose certain of his rights as a citizen”. The words “terrible”, “horrible”, and “awful” have already been ruined by this kind of abuse, and “notorious” is trembling on the edge. I don’t want to see it happen to “infamous”, too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/9 "2007-06-08T21:21:31Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] I dare say it does, but “unpopular in some circles” is not one of them. It’s a _nasty_ word, an insulting word. One of its definitions is “of a crime, sufficiently heinous as to cause the perpetrator to lose certain of his rights as a citizen”. [/quote] So what? The author was not using the word as meaning “unpopular in some circles” but as your own quoted definition of “having an exceedingly bad reputation” which is an exactly proper meaning of the word. In context, he was saying that the AAH has a reputation that could lose you your reputation if you advocate for it. Great word choice. You are simply wrong on this. > [@](#): > > The words “terrible”, “horrible”, and “awful” have already been ruined by this kind of abuse, and “notorious” is trembling on the edge. I don’t want to see it happen to “infamous”, too. a) Tough shit; that’s the way the language works. b) You can believe anything you want about the proper meaning of words, but if you hold to a meaning that is not the norm and castigate someone for using the word that way without explanation, people will quite properly put the onus on you for not making your own usage clear. c) This is all moot. The author used the word correctly in the first place, and you are out of line for defending your improper criticism. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/10 "2007-06-10T02:10:26Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] So what? The author was not using the word as meaning “unpopular in some circles” but as your own quoted definition of “having an exceedingly bad reputation” which is an exactly proper meaning of the word. In context, he was saying that the AAH has a reputation that could lose you your reputation if you advocate for it. Great word choice. You are simply wrong on this. [/quote] On the contrary, _in context_, he could _not_ mean that, unless he’s even more scatterbrained than he seems, for he applies it both to the Aquatic-Ape nonsense _and_ to Moore’s refutation thereof. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The words “terrible”, “horrible”, and “awful” have already been ruined by this kind of abuse, and “notorious” is trembling on the edge. I don’t want to see it happen to “infamous”, too. > > a) Tough shit; that’s the way the language works. Everybody dies; so let’s abolish medicine, eh? No. Language is a tool, and, like any other tool, requires care. A tool that is abused soon uses its usefulness. > [@](#): > > b) You can believe anything you want about the proper meaning of words, but if you hold to a meaning that is not the norm and castigate someone for using the word that way without explanation, people will quite properly put the onus on you for not making your own usage clear. I cannot make head nor tail of that. > [@](#): > > c) This is all moot. The author used the word correctly in the first place, and you are out of line for defending your improper criticism. He did _not_ use it correctly, as I point out above. He vulgarly used a big word for a small meaning, or repeated a misusage that he had heard elsewhere, or simply was not thinking clearly enough to mean anything in particular at all. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/11 "2007-06-10T02:30:38Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] I cannot make head nor tail of that. [/quote] In other words, your excuse for not responding to a critique of your inability to read the plain words of an ordinary sentence is pleading your inability to read the plain words of an ordinary sentence. A remarkable admission. > [@](#): > > Everybody dies; so let’s abolish medicine, eh? Everybody is born, changes every single day, and eventually dies. Let’s celebrate life and change. And death is an inevitable part of the process. You can try to elevate your mistake to philosophy. But it’s still a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/12 "2007-06-11T02:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] In other words, your excuse for not responding to a critique of your inability to read the plain words of an ordinary sentence is pleading your inability to read the plain words of an ordinary sentence. A remarkable admission. [/quote] I suggest you take the time to reread carefully the passage that you wrote and I quoted; it is completely incoherent. > [@](#): > > Everybody is born, changes every single day, and eventually dies. Let’s celebrate life and change. And death is an inevitable part of the process. A lovely justification for suicide, whether in the literal sense, or in the mere suicide of the intellectual faculties. I choose not to be a suicide. > [@](#): > > You can try to elevate your mistake to philosophy. But it’s still a mistake. You have not even attempted to show that I have made a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/13 "2007-06-11T03:02:29Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > You have not even attempted to show that I have made a mistake. Oh, good grief. The lowest form of Internet argument. “Begone! I negate your posts! Your dictionary definitions mean nothing against my awesome powers of ignoring the written word!” Piffle. You can have the last word. Whatever it is, I’m sure that it will be infamous in any definition. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/14 "2007-06-11T14:03:02Z")
May I suggest (as poster, not as moderator) that y’all might want to re-read the chapter of ALICE that involves Humpty Dumpty? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/15 "2007-06-11T14:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] No. Language is a tool, and, like any other tool, requires care. A tool that is abused soon uses its usefulness. [/QUOTE] Cite? I’m serious. Provide me a citation–an example of a case in which language change has been established to have led to a loss of the usefulness of the language in question. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/16 "2007-06-11T14:14:32Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] I suggest you take the time to reread carefully the passage that you wrote and I quoted; it is completely incoherent. [/quote] The passage is completely coherent. I can’t see what you’re difficulty is. I do believe its author meant to put a “not” before “using,” but that much is clear from context. Even without the “not” the passage is grammatically impeccable–it just doesn’t quite mean what its author meant it to mean. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/17 "2007-06-11T18:38:39Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Cite? I’m serious. Provide me a citation–an example of a case in which language change has been established to have led to a loss of the usefulness of the language in question. [/QUOTE] Ask any translator, especially of drama, about the difficulties caused by the destruction of “thou” in English. “I don’t have indigestion” and “I haven’t got indigestion” used to mean two different things. Have you ever tried to do Shakespeare with amateurs? As C. S. Lewis said (playing on a once-popular warning sign in English parks), “Let no one say, and say it to your shame, That there was meaning here before you came.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/18 "2007-06-11T19:19:48Z")
[QUOTE=John W. Kennedy] Ask any translator, especially of drama, about the difficulties caused by the destruction of “thou” in English. [/quote] Are you advocating that we ought to _change the language_ to include it again? 😛 But seriously, I’ve never seen this fact about English (that it has no distinction between politeness registers for the second person pronoun, right?) cause a translator to have to do more than mention the fact that the familiar form was being used. (I’ve just been reading a Calvino novel in which this occurs, in fact.) I see a difference here, but not a serious difficulty, and certainly no lack of “usefulness.” > [@](#): > > “I don’t have indigestion” and “I haven’t got indigestion” used to mean two different things. And what were those two different things? > [@](#): > > Have you ever tried to do Shakespeare with amateurs? I don’t see the relevance. What does this have to do with the usefulness of current language vs. Shakespearean language? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/19 "2007-06-11T19:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] May I suggest (as poster, not as moderator) that y’all might want to re-read the chapter of ALICE that involves Humpty Dumpty? [/QUOTE] 😃 [spoiler]‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.’ ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.’[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818/20 "2007-06-11T21:45:28Z")
Now, now, **Khadaji** , at least finish it off with Humpty’s retort: “The question is which is to be master, me or the word.l” (I’m paraphrasing from memory, don’t have me copy handy.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aquatic-ape-out-of-date/406818.md?page=2)