# Arafat won the Intifada, but the Palestinian people lost. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2002, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545 "2002-05-17T13:31:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/1 "2002-05-17T13:31:45Z")
Two years ago, Yassir Arafat rejected an offer of a Palestinian State, and instead called for an intifada. As a result, many Palestinians have been killed or injured, much of their property was destroyed, the offer of a Palestinian State was withdrawn, and the Central Committee of the ruling Likud Party just voted _never_ to allow a PS on the West Bank. OTOH Arafat remains in power. Western aid to the Palestinians was increased. Since that money flows through Arafat, his potential share is increased. A Palestinian State might choose a new leader, so it served Arafat’s personal interests that an agreement was averted. In short, Arafat got everything he wanted; the Palestinian people got screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/2 "2002-05-17T13:45:05Z")
Two years ago, Yassir Arafat rejected an offer of a Palestinian State (cite for this being a sustainable and complete state?) and instead called for an intifada. (cite?) As a result, many Palestinians have been killed or injured (cite?) much of their property was destroyed, (cite?) the offer of a Palestinian State was withdrawn (cite?) and the Central Committee of the ruling Likud Party just voted _never_ to allow a PS on the West Bank. (relevence?) OTOH Arafat remains in power. (correct!) Western aid to the Palestinians was increased. (cite?) Since that money flows through Arafat, (cite?) his potential share is increased. (cite?) A Palestinian State might choose a new leader, (cite?) so it served Arafat’s personal interests that an agreement was averted. (cite?) In short, Arafat got everything he wanted; the Palestinian people got screwed. (cite?) OH, sorry, I just realised that this was posted by **December** - ignore my comments as being totally useless. 😉 Is this a debate or a rant? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/3 "2002-05-17T14:38:49Z")
[This article](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=164992&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) helps explain why continued warfare serves Arafat. > [@](#): > > **Arafat: no elections in PA until Israel withdraws from territories** > Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat told reporters Friday that elections would only be held in the West Bank and Gaza Strip once Israeli occupation had ended, but his advisers later clarified that the voting is being linked to a far more modest withdrawal demand… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/4 "2002-05-17T14:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*[This article](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=164992&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) helps explain why continued warfare serves Arafat. \*\* I don’t see how it backs up our allegations, especially as the main contention may only be Israeli spin on the matter. See: [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle\_east/story.jsp?story=295928](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=295928) for a less biased view of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/5 "2002-05-17T14:48:57Z")
Of course, that should be ‘your’ allegations not ‘our’ allegations. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/6 "2002-05-17T15:19:12Z")
[insert long string of invective that I thought I better not post outside the Pit] Yeah, and it’s Sharon’s fault that Hamas suicide bombers massacre Israelis. :rolleyes: Give us a fucking break will you! How many insidious, inflammatory, crap-ass, uninformed and biased threads slandering the Palestinians, the Arabic region and the Islamic faith do you have in storage? Why can’t you just post them all at once? If you do, do it in the Pit so that we can reply as it deserves. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/7 "2002-05-17T15:33:20Z")
\<\< How many insidious, inflammatory, crap-ass, uninformed and biased threads slandering the Palestinians, the Arabic region and the Islamic faith do you have in storage? Why can’t you just post them all at once? If you do, do it in the Pit so that we can reply as it deserves \>\> Are we reading the same posts here, Sparc. I see nothing here that slanders Palestinians, the Arabic region, or the Islamic faith. I see an OP that blasts Arafat (the individual) for being a piss-poor leader, for seeking self-aggrandisement and riches at the expense of his people. The assertion is that Arafat and his cronies sponsor terrorism, funnel money that was expected to help relieve the dreadful conditions to terrorist and military activity, are corrupt and bribery-laden, and have acted against what the OP perceives are the best interests of the Palestinian people. I see no connection between the OP and your accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/8 "2002-05-17T15:39:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Give us a fucking break will you! How many insidious, inflammatory, crap-ass, uninformed and biased threads slandering the Palestinians, the Arabic region and the Islamic faith do you have in storage? While I am no particular fan of **december** , I find the European contingent’s outrage quite laughable. **december** certainly did not slander the Palestinians, the “Arabic region,” nor the Islamic faith. A little critical thinking, please. Here are some cites for you, **Pjen** , in case you haven’t read a newspaper in the past two years or so. > [@](#): > > and instead called for an intifada. (cite?) [http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-4.htm](http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-4.htm) While you may disagree with the Jerusalem Center For Public Affairs’ bias and interpretation of events, you will be hard pressed to dispute its statements of fact. > [@](#): > > As a result, many Palestinians have been killed or injured (cite?) > **[Straw outraged by Palestinian casualties](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/apr/12/foreignpolicy.israel)** > > April 12: The foreign secretary said today he was 'deeply shocked' by the Israeli army's disclosure that hundreds of Palestinians had been killed at the refugee camp in Jenin. Sheesh. > [@](#): > > much of their property was destroyed, (cite?) See above. > [@](#): > > the offer of a Palestinian State was withdrawn (cite?) > **[Harvard Kennedy School](https://www.hks.harvard.edu)** > > By combining cutting-edge research, the teaching of outstanding students, and direct interaction with practitioners, we have an impact on solving public problems that no other institution can match. > [@](#): > > Western aid to the Palestinians was increased. (cite?) [http://www.allavida.org/alliance/articles/2002/pr20020305\_5.cfm](http://www.allavida.org/alliance/articles/2002/pr20020305_5.cfm) > [@](#): > > On the positive side, since September 2000 Palestinian civil society has continued to be supported by external donors, who see NGOs as flexible and efficient vehicles for bringing vital services to the population. Financial contributions have actually increased over the past year, with even USAID making generous resources available to the NGO community. > [@](#): > > Since that money flows through Arafat, (cite?) > > his potential share is increased. (cite?) **december’s** on his own for this one. > [@](#): > > A Palestinian State might choose a new leader, (cite?) It’s a speculative premise. What kind of cite do you want? Sheesh. > [@](#): > > In short, Arafat got everything he wanted; the Palestinian people got screwed. (cite?) This is called a conclusion. It is based on previous premises, for almost all of which cites are easily and liberally produced. It is only a debate if you are willing to discuss the evidence and the analysis rather than dismiss it out of hand because **december** posted it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/9 "2002-05-17T16:46:12Z")
1/ A cite from a reputable and neutral source proving that Arafat initiated the Intifada. 2/ A logical connection between the Intifada (which does not include the suicide bombings- check the PLOs own agreement that these are outside the Intifada) and Palestinian deaths and damage caused that were justified Israeli response to the Intifada. As far as I can see it would be fair to say that some of the deaths were the ‘result’ of the Intifada, whereas others were illegitimate Israeli responses to civil disobedience or Israeli reaction to suicide bombings (not part of the Intifada). 3/ Any sign that the offer of a Palestinians state has been withdrawn by anyone other than Israel- who have no legal standing in the matter, only the threat of potential aggression. The US, the EU and the UN still offer a Palestinian State. 4/ Any cite to show that Arafat might lose an election as a result of the Intifada, rather than because he is seen as not progressing that Intifada with enough force- a much more likely scenario. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/10 "2002-05-17T17:02:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \*3/ Any sign that the offer of a Palestinians state has been withdrawn by anyone other than Israel- who have no legal standing in the matter, only the threat of potential aggression. The US, the EU and the UN still offer a Palestinian State. The UN only has a few square blocks in their complex on the East Side of Manhattan. It’s nice of them to offer that land to be used for a Palestinian State, but it isn’t large enough. 😛 Seriously, for better or for worse, the land for a Palestinian State is under Israel’s control, so their opinion is the one that counts the most. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/11 "2002-05-17T17:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* Seriously, for better or for worse, the land for a Palestinian State is under Israel’s control, so their opinion is the one that counts the most. \*\* The State of Israel does hold a veto over this, but only by default. If it became necessary for US ends (for instance the need to invade Iraq) and the US put pressure on Israel- a Palestinian State would spring into existence- and probably will before the winter of 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/12 "2002-05-17T18:17:14Z")
No one won? The Inftifada is not over. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/13 "2002-05-17T18:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > 1/ A cite from a reputable and neutral source proving that Arafat initiated the Intifada Neutral? You have got to be kidding. At any rate, from the horse’s mouth: > [@](#): > > Whoever thinks the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque is wrong…This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David Negotiations," admitted Palestinian Communications Minister 'Imad Al-Faluji six months ago (Al-Safir, March 3, 2001, trans. MEMRI). > [@](#): > > 2/ A logical connection between the Intifada (which does not include the suicide bombings- check the PLOs own agreement that these are outside the Intifada) and Palestinian deaths and damage caused that were justified Israeli response to the Intifada. As far as I can see it would be fair to say that some of the deaths were the ‘result’ of the Intifada, whereas others were illegitimate Israeli responses to civil disobedience or Israeli reaction to suicide bombings (not part of the Intifada). Perhaps you can tell me how the suicide bombings are _not_ connected with the Intifada. This smacks of hair-splitting sophistry. Next you will be telling us that Antietam was not part of the Civil War. Your further discussion of causation and “justification” eludes me completely. Please clarify your terms if you wish to discuss this issue further. > [@](#): > > 3/ Any sign that the offer of a Palestinians state has been withdrawn by anyone other than Israel- who have no legal standing in the matter, only the threat of potential aggression. The US, the EU and the UN still offer a Palestinian State. Israel has no legal standing? Cite, please. What about its _de facto_ standing? Which do you think is more important? > [@](#): > > 4/ Any cite to show that Arafat might lose an election as a result of the Intifada, rather than because he is seen as not progressing that Intifada with enough force- a much more likely scenario. Perhaps you can also tell me how I am going to find a relatively accurate cite concerning the condition of the Palestinian electorate, and I use that term _very_ loosely, since the Palestinian people are utterly deficient in the free press department. Not to mention the fact that they seem to enjoy killing those among them who dissent with the extreme right. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/14 "2002-05-18T03:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by efrem \* > \*\*No one won? The Inftifada is not over. \*\* _Thaaaaank_ you. 😃 I was wondering if anybody else had noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/15 "2002-05-18T03:39:04Z")
I’m confused as to why **Pjen** believes that the United States and the EU have more “legal standing” to offer a Palestinian state than Israel does. Clarification would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arafat-won-the-intifada-but-the-palestinian-people-lost/109545/16 "2002-05-18T07:10:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thegrimspectreofreddeath \* > \*\*I’m confused as to why **Pjen** believes that the United States and the EU have more “legal standing” to offer a Palestinian state than Israel does. > > Clarification would be nice. \*\* The UN has considerably more ‘legal standing’. Israel defends its position as the most internationally accepted state because it was created by a UN ruling. The UN is also ruling that a Palestinian State should be created. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the Gander. The importance of the US and EU- the vast majority of Israel’s trade is with the EU (first) and the US (second) IIRC the two together count for over 3/4 of Israel’s trade. If a Palestinian State becomes more necessary to US interests than supporting Israel’s current position, then a Palestinian State will appear. If Israel really pisses off the EU (and it’s doing a pretty good job at the minute) then it’s massive trade concessions giving it _very_ special access to European markets could be withdrawn or gradually limited. There are already rolling boycotts of Israeli products in many European countries organised by informal groups. Additionally a recent poll showed that over 70% of the Israeli population still support a Palestinian State.