# Aragorn dies during the quest. What happens to the RingWar? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769 "2010-04-20T17:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/21 "2010-04-21T15:37:41Z")
My take on **Skald** ’s question: There were other Dunedain in the north. Aragorn probably had a cousin somewhere who would become Chieftain of the Rangers. Faramir becomes Steward of Gondor. Without Aragorn, I don’t see much hope for Gondor’s survival. However, with Sauron’s forces rampaging through the west, that might make it easier for Frodo to reach Mount Doom and destroy the Ring. After Sauron falls, Aragorn’s cousin becomes king of Arnor. Eomer having died in the war, Eowyn becomes Queen of Rohan. Faramir marries her, and their descendants become the rulers of the Rohirrim and the remainder of the southern Dunedain. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/22 "2010-04-21T16:00:28Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > The only elf we know of who returned to ME after a trip to the Halls of Mandos is Glorfindel. I treat this as a screwup by JRRT, and ignore it. As far as I am concerned, the only elf who returned from the hall of Mados is Luthien - and then only under conditions (mortality). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/23 "2010-04-21T16:25:08Z")
The extraordinary grace granted to Luthien was not that she come back, but that her fate and Beren’s be joined. Coming back once but then really dying is a sort of compromise between the fates of Men and Elves. There’s plenty of other evidence in the Silmarillion for the notion of Elves being reborn. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/24 "2010-04-21T17:24:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That’s why I postulated several possible points for Strider’s death. The earlier it happens, the more boned the West is… I agree. He’s absolutely vital at several points of the story, and his premature death would have big - and disastrous - consequences for the Free Peoples. I could see some other Dunedain from a cadet branch maybe rising to claim the throne of Gondor, but even with Gandalf the White going to Plan B, there probably wouldn’t be time before Minas Tirith fell and things totally fell apart. There would likely be a mass exodus of Elves to take ship into the West, with the Dwarves hunkering down in their cave-fortresses at Erebor and elsewhere, and the tattered remnants of the kingdoms of Men escaping into the wilderness, like Turin and his followers of old, to desperately keep fighting Sauron’s victorious hordes. If Frodo completed his quest, of course, some good might still be salvaged from the disaster, but the outlook would be pretty grim. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/25 "2010-04-21T17:47:12Z")
Aragorn rattled Sauron with the use of the Palantir. This was huge. His bringing the dead against the Corsairs was part of what saved Minas Tirith. No Aragorn and Helm’s Deep would probably mean Rohan would have had no King as Theoden and Éomer both died trying to hold it. Saruman would still have lost but he would have done more harm first. Now if Aragorn had died at Weathertop we have a different scenario. This was very early and Frodo probably would never have made it to Rivendell and in fact, the Ring probably would have fallen to the Nazgul. If the Ring did make it to Rivendell, the party that set out for Mordor would have been very different. I strongly suspect more Elves. In fact I suspect Glorfindel or perhaps both of Elrond’s Sons would have went. If Aragorn did not fall until the Black Gate, then Faramir would have ruled Gondor and probably taken the mantle of King. Gondor would have faded away much faster of course. The North would have probably repopulated but as many minor and petty kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/26 "2010-04-21T20:09:13Z")
With respect to the Maiar, wasn’t Saruman denied the West? As I recall, when Grima Wormtongue stabbed him, his ghost, for want of a better word, rose from the body, looked to the West, and then dispersed in the wind. I took that to mean that, because he had betrayed his mission, he was denied the right to return to the Blessed Lands and simply died. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/27 "2010-04-21T20:11:51Z")
Something like that, yes. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/28 "2010-04-21T20:14:11Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > With respect to the Maiar, wasn’t Saruman denied the West? As I recall, when Grima Wormtongue stabbed him, his ghost, for want of a better word, rose from the body, looked to the West, and then dispersed in the wind. I took that to mean that, because he had betrayed his mission, he was denied the right to return to the Blessed Lands and simply died. Maybe not died, but was unable to become corporeal ever again at least. He was a spirit in nature so could not actually die. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/29 "2010-04-21T20:20:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Something like that, yes. I’ve always taken it that Manwe woke up from his nap, saw Saruman trying to come home, and said, “Sorry, dude, not happening. Take it up with Eru.” Meanwhile, Ulmo was muttering “You know, none of this crap would have happened to the Children of Iluvatur if anybody listened to me. Why, exactly, are you in charge, you feckless wanker?” Tulkas said nothing, of course, as he had long since abandoned Manwe’s idiot camp and was shacked up with Luthien and Nessa both. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/30 "2010-04-21T20:24:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > …Tulkas …was shacked up with Luthien and Nessa both. The lucky bastard! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/31 "2010-04-21T20:27:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The lucky bastard! Actually I meant to type _Melian_. Which would make him unlucky, what with her being, despite her nearly infinite hotness, an incredibly selfish bitch. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/32 "2010-04-21T20:38:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Actually I meant to type _Melian_. Which would make him unlucky, what with her being, despite her nearly infinite hotness, an incredibly selfish bitch. Which, fortuitously, brings up Melian. She abandoned her body voluntarily after Thingol was killed by the Dwarves and returned to Valinor. So that’s one more data point for the Ainur. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/33 "2010-04-21T20:44:13Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Dwarves believe that they are continuously reincarnated. Did I miss something somewhere, or was Durin the only one who actually was supposed to reincarnate? And then only intermittently, not in the sense that there was always a Durin among the Longbeards. > [@](#): > > So there may well be a an Ent wing to the Halls of Mandos (between the Orc and Elf wings?). Or they may also have some sort of reincarnation like the Dwarves may get. I’m not sure if the Gift of Man would be so called if it were the default for all non-elven races. One thing I never really got about the Ents…they were the _olvar_ equivalent of the Eagles, the protectors and lords of plant life. So why do they get to be a Free People but the Eagles don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/34 "2010-04-21T20:47:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Which, fortuitously, brings up Melian. She abandoned her body voluntarily after Thingol was killed by the Dwarves and returned to Valinor. So that’s one more data point for the Ainur. Hence the incredibly selfish bitch portion of my description. I mean, I think the people of Doriath could really have used that freaking magic shield right then. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/35 "2010-04-21T20:49:23Z")
If he dies anywhere but the Black Gate, the War might have been lost. Only Aragorn had the kingly cojones to go challenge Sauron at the Black Gate, brave men fell by the wayside on the road there out of abject terror. Without that last distraction of Sauron’s attention, Frodo and Samwise might well have fallen under the gaze of the unblinking eye while in Mordor before reaching the Crack of Doom. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/36 "2010-04-21T20:55:01Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > One thing I never really got about the Ents…they were the _olvar_ equivalent of the Eagles, the protectors and lords of plant life. So why do they get to be a Free People but the Eagles don’t? That is a good question and never gone into, but that also seemed to be the Ents’ list. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/37 "2010-04-21T20:57:56Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > That is a good question and never gone into, but that also seemed to be the Ents’ list. One reason might be that the Eagles’ work directly under the Valar’s aegis in a way that the Ents do not seem to. I mean, yeah, they have their own stuff going on, but when Manwe calls they drop whatever sheep they were just carrying off and do his bidding, and Manwe calls upon them in a way that Yavanna does not do to the Ents. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/38 "2010-04-21T21:27:18Z")
I really liked_SpeaktomeMaddie_s scenarios. Both of those stories would hold my interest and sound true to the spirit of the original. Both need more hobbit action, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/39 "2010-04-21T22:20:06Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > Orcs are funny in that we aren’t entirely sure what they are. They could be a form of Human or Elf… in which case they would presumably follow that race’s fate. Tolkien even played with them being some sort of soulless automaton. But he never quite got all the various contradictions that would entail worked out. So at best we can say we don’t know. Wasn’t there some indication that Orcs were corrupted versions of Elves? There were some Elves that never went to Valinor, if memory serves. Is there any word in the canon about them possibly having been copied or bred into Orcs? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769/40 "2010-04-21T22:29:14Z")
> [@](#): > > There were some Elves that never went to Valinor, if memory serves. Is there any word in the canon about them possibly having been copied or bred into Orcs? There’s plenty of word, but none of it really definitive. Some wise and knowledgeable characters express a belief that Orcs were made in imitation or mockery of Elves, while others believe that Melkor was never able to actually create anything new, and that the Orcs were just Elves that were corrupted. The omniscient narrator never says which view is actually correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aragorn-dies-during-the-quest-what-happens-to-the-ringwar/536769.md?page=3)