# Arapahoe school shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474 "2013-12-16T16:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/41 "2013-12-17T15:55:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Having an armed officer in the school forces the monster to deal with the officer instead of continuing their rampage unimpeded. Is it possible that more people would have been injured/killed if an armed officer had NOT been in the vicinity and taking control of the situation? Probably. That doesn’t always work- see Columbine. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/42 "2013-12-17T15:57:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That doesn’t always work- see Columbine. After Columbine they rewrote the book on procedures for shootings. At that time, the best practice was thought to be contain and wait. They no longer do that. This has already been pointed out in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/43 "2013-12-17T15:57:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Do we know the socioeconomics of the shooter? I haven’t been watching the news, but i was under the impression this happened in a suburb full of comfortably incomed people. > > How is addressing poverty going to fix the problem of middle-class disaffected males going out in a blaze of imagined glory? “Going out in a BLAZE of glory”? That must be why this monster brought FIRE-BOMBS with him. This monster was mentally disturbed and I’m guessing there were clues about his mental instability in his recent past. Clues that were somehow ignored. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/44 "2013-12-17T16:13:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > That doesn’t always work- see Columbine. The BOMBERS at Columbine and Aurora should suggest to you that mentally disturbed monsters have other means to kill and maim. It’s obvious that Colorado police have changed their tactics in an attempt to deal with these situations. Maybe you should change your tactics and address the mental health issues also? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/45 "2013-12-17T16:19:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The BOMBERS at Columbine and Aurora should suggest to you that mentally disturbed monsters have other means to kill and maim. It’s obvious that Colorado police have changed their tactics in an attempt to deal with these situations. Maybe you should change your tactics and address the mental health issues also? Sure we should address mental health issues. But I don’t support the notion that gun restrictions can’t be considered until all other means to commit murder have been eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/46 "2013-12-17T16:19:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Then let’s start by implementing where we agree. Of course, what prevents that are the large number of red staters who willingly vote against their economic self interest in the misguided hope that giving more money to the Job Creators will somehow benefit them. Hahahaha. Where do “we” agree? You blame firearms. I blame the mentally disturbed bomber/shooter. If you were to somehow manage to gather enough votes to make your firearm-free utopia possible, you’re still left with mentally disturbed monsters who use whatever means is at their disposal to kill and maim others. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/47 "2013-12-17T16:35:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. Where do “we” agree? You blame firearms. I blame the mentally disturbed bomber/shooter. If you were to somehow manage to gather enough votes to make your firearm-free utopia possible, you’re still left with mentally disturbed monsters who use whatever means is at their disposal to kill and maim others. Don’t get all unhinged- I think we all agree that we need to do something about mental health in the US. Let’s work on that. Do we need to bring back the days of asylums? Maybe. But we can have this conversation without having guns get in the way. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/48 "2013-12-17T16:47:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Don’t get all unhinged- I think we all agree that we need to do something about mental health in the US. Let’s work on that. Do we need to bring back the days of asylums? Maybe. But we can have this conversation without having guns get in the way. Yes, we can have this discussion, once people on both sides stop parroting their side’s talking points, such as this: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The notion of requiring our teachers to pack heat is preposterous and nothing more than a wet dream of the NRA types. If you want less gun violence, then you need fewer guns- simple as that. If only Congress could do this. However, sticking to the party line gets you re-elected. Working with the other side gets you primaried out. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/49 "2013-12-17T16:47:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Don’t get all unhinged- I think we all agree that we need to do something about mental health in the US. Let’s work on that. Do we need to bring back the days of asylums? Maybe. But we can have this conversation without having guns get in the way. Hahahaha. Your idea of not “having guns get in the way” is to ban/confiscate them all. You don’t have the votes to do that and it doesn’t address the mental health issue failures at all. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/50 "2013-12-17T16:51:29Z")
One of the reasons conversations about guns, violence, and mental health are so goddamned difficult is the language people choose to use. **doorhinge** , you consistently characterize this kid as a “monster” even as you acknowledge mental illness. _That alone makes me completely dismiss everything you have to say._ I’m not suggesting you change it or anything, and I certainly don’t expect you to give much of a rat’s ass what _I_ think. But it might be worth noting how you present yourself through your use of language. . ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/51 "2013-12-17T16:59:23Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Does that make sense to anyone? It makes sense if the shooter wishes to commit suicide and does not want to risk getting shot and then captured. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/52 "2013-12-17T17:02:24Z")
[Some background from the Denver Post.](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24721367/arapahoe-high-gunman-held-strong-political-beliefs-classmates#ixzz2nULRWlhl) [And an AU source.](http://www.news.com.au/world/two-students-injured-in-arapahoe-high-school-shooting/story-fndir2ev-1226783250108) Posted without comment. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/53 "2013-12-17T17:19:16Z")
> [@andros](#): > > One of the reasons conversations about guns, violence, and mental health are so goddamned difficult is the language people choose to use. > > **doorhinge** , you consistently characterize this kid as a “monster” even as you acknowledge mental illness. _That alone makes me completely dismiss everything you have to say._ > > I’m not suggesting you change it or anything, and I certainly don’t expect you to give much of a rat’s ass what _I_ think. But it might be worth noting how you present yourself through your use of language. > . This kid is a monster. But what point are you trying to make? That I didn’t meet your expectations of some ritualistic protocal that you require to join a discussion? How have you furthered this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/54 "2013-12-17T17:28:35Z")
Early, armed intervention. [http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/) > **[One in Ten Mass Shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens; Most Occur Where Guns...](http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/one-in-ten-mass-shootings-stopped-by.html)** > > In the best published study of mass shootings, it was found that 99 had occurred between 1980 and 2010. We know that a number of mass shoo... [http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/it-true-armed-civilians-have-never-stopped-mass-shooting\_690808.html?page=2](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/it-true-armed-civilians-have-never-stopped-mass-shooting_690808.html?page=2) ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/55 "2013-12-17T17:29:33Z")
For what it’s worth, I’m of the same mind as **andros**. Sick people need help, not dehumanization. I get where you’re going here – blame the shooter, not the weapon, but acknowledging that a person is sick and then calling them a monster in the same sentence strikes me as odd. Do we blame the shooter or the illness? If the latter, then the shooter isn’t a monster. I.e., if we discover that he had a brain tumor that was affecting his behavior, do you still call him a monster? Why would he be more of a monster than someone with a lung tumor? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/56 "2013-12-17T17:42:18Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > For what it’s worth, I’m of the same mind as **andros**. Sick people need help, not dehumanization. I get where you’re going here – blame the shooter, not the weapon, but acknowledging that a person is sick and then calling them a monster in the same sentence strikes me as odd. Do we blame the shooter or the illness? If the latter, then the shooter isn’t a monster. I.e., if we discover that he had a brain tumor that was affecting his behavior, do you still call him a monster? Why would he be more of a monster than someone with a lung tumor? (underline added for clarity) Seriously? He brought fire bombs and a shotgun to kill and maim people he disagreed with or just didn’t like. That behavior is monsterous. Do you know he had a brain/lung tumor? Or are you just assuming he must have had a physical illness? Or are you just trying to change the topic? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/57 "2013-12-17T17:44:35Z")
Is there any value to labeling this person a “monster”? Does it add anything informative to the discussion? I’m going to say…no. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/58 "2013-12-17T17:55:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Seriously? He brought fire bombs and a shotgun to kill and maim people he disagreed with or just didn’t like. That behavior is monsterous. And sometimes my kids act like brats, but I don’t _label_ them as brats. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you know he had a brain/lung tumor? Or are you just assuming he must have had a physical illness? Or are you just trying to change the topic? You seem to readily admit that he’s mentally ill, or at least very likely mentally ill. Since the brain is a physical object, it’s very likely that _all_ mental illness is physical in some regard, either in brain construction or chemical balance. Do you really draw a distinction somewhere in there? Someone who’s mentally ill can be a monster, but not someone who’s physically ill? I’m just trying to get a sense of who you’re OK with dehumanizing. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/59 "2013-12-17T17:56:53Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Yes, I absolutely believe that trained, armed security personnel are apt to be useful when someone goes into a public building like a school with the intention of killing people. I do not believe that it’s worth the money to train and hire an armed guard for each of our schools as a preventive measure. The one school I’ve encountered that was on permanent lockdown and had a guard posted at the door (IDK if they were armed or not) was a K-3 school in a middle-class neighborhood in a small city in a rural area. This was the school attended by children that age who lived at the domestic violence shelter, and that’s why they had such high security. The guard was paid by the agency. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/60 "2013-12-17T17:57:12Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Is there any value to labeling this person a “monster”? Does it add anything informative to the discussion? I’m going to say…no. He is neither white or black or brown or yellow or red or green. He is neither Democrat or Republican. He is neither socialist or communist or capitalist. He is neither tall or short or fat or thin. He is someone who committed a monsterous act. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=4)