# Arapahoe school shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474 "2013-12-16T16:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/81 "2013-12-19T05:56:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Umm, he shot a 17 year old girl in the face with a shotgun and you took offense at him being called a monster and went on about understanding mental illness. I call that apologizing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/82 "2013-12-19T06:51:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Guns aren’t going anywhere, end of discussion. I don’t know why people don’t just acknowledge this and work these things from other angles. > > Police officers often prompt the ending of these spree shootings, so having one in every school actually probably serves a good chance of preventing them and limiting their carnage once they start. > > While it may not be typical where you live, a large percentage of all schools already have an assigned, armed, police officer and have for years pre-Newtown. So the incremental expense of taking that from “a large percentage” to “all” is actually pretty small in the grand scheme of things. > > I’m somewhat surprised this made national news, because it appears this wasn’t a spree shooting but a student there to murder a staff member he disliked. That kind of thing has been going on forever and usually isn’t national news. > > Four or five years ahead of me in school, there was a kid who was brutally bullied pretty much constantly. He was in 8th grade at the time. The junior high gym had doors that went from the locker room to the outside (it made sense, you would change in the gym then exit those doors to go down to the football field to do outdoor activities), back in this era there were no safety fears with having an unlocked back entrance to a school. > > One day the kid who had been bullied skipped school. He got his dad’s shot gun out of the closet and, when he knew his tormentor would be changing in the locker room he went in through the back door and went straight to his locker. Didn’t say a word, calmly pointed the shot gun point blank at his chest and fired–bully died essentially on the spot. > > I remember it at the time, it was big news in a small, rural Virginia town. But the reaction was more “I just can’t imagine how sick or insane a kid would have to be to do something like this.” It was handled as a “kid has a psychological problem” thing, the kid went to a hospital for some years and eventually was released. > > It also wasn’t national news, I just tried and could not find any reference in any national paper to the incident. I’d probably have to go to my home town’s library and access newspaper archives to find an article on it. So it was simple not a major news event…and is very similar to this shooting. There was a shooting at my junior high several years before I went there, although there were no injuries other than a few kids who got cuts and scrapes from jumping out a first-floor window. A boy who was being bullied brought a rifle to school, and fired several shots into a wall before being tackled by a teacher. I never knew about it until I read accounts on that school’s Facebook page! And here’s the interesting thing. The people who were there said almost to a person that the target totally had it coming, and several people had harbored fantasies about shooting him as well, because of the way he treated them. :eek: That people were willing to say this on FACEBOOK indicates that the kid must have been something else. One other thing. This happened in 1972. p.s. Too bad the kid died. He should have survived, and been left paralyzed. I can think of a few classmates of mine that if anyone had done that to them, there would have been a celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/83 "2013-12-19T14:50:07Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The person who’s life your wild shooting would endanger? What wild shooting? I’ve had firearms instructors compliment me on my tight grouping. 😛 > [@](#): > > the person who thinks they’ll be Rambo and defend their house and family from invaders. Nah, I think I’ll be a fatass old white guy defending my house and family. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/84 "2013-12-19T15:15:38Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :rolleyes: I’m surprised you would squander an opportunity to clarify your position/feelings about this particular student/shooter/monster. It seems there is a possible misunderstanding about your position and only you can clear it up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/85 "2013-12-19T17:26:23Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Nearly all such shooters commit suicide as soon as they encounter any sort of armed resistance. > > Which is why if the politicians and the school administrators had any sense at all, they would REQUIRE teachers to be armed. > > Recent history has shown with blinding clarity that the most ineffectual thing in the world is a “gun-free” zone. They’re gun-free all right–until they aren’t. That sounds nice, but it’s full of potential for unintended consequences. I’ll bet such a policy would result in more accidental shootings and shootings by students who got ahold of teachers’ guns than the crimes it would prevent. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/86 "2013-12-19T17:27:44Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Umm, he shot a 17 year old girl in the face with a shotgun and you took offense at him being called a monster and went on about understanding mental illness. I call that apologizing. That’s totally unfair. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/87 "2013-12-19T17:48:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s totally unfair. Unfair to whom? The girl who was shot? The families of the victims and shooter? The intended target (the teacher)? The 1st responders who had to address the aftermath of this monsters bizarre act? The witnesses to the shooting? The students and teachers who have to return to a place where some mentally ill monster tried to decided who should live and who should die? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/88 "2013-12-19T17:56:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m surprised you would squander an opportunity to clarify your position/feelings about this particular student/shooter/monster. It seems there is a possible misunderstanding about your position and only you can clear it up. Well golly gee, Pop, what should I say? That it’s possible to feel compassion for someone without justifying or condoning his heinous acts? That it’s possible to pity someone without feeling any less pity or sadness for his victim and her family? That my heart breaks for Claire Davis and her family? That it also breaks for Karl Pierson and his? That it’s possible to condemn disgusting and heartbreaking acts without losing sight of the fact that those acts were committed by a human being? That Karl Pierson was a human being, a child, a terribly damaged person, and not a monster? That _people_ do horrible–even, dare I say, _monstrous_–things? That it’s in our nature? That dismissing Karl Pierson as inhuman absolves one of the responsibility to confront the nature of humanity in all its horrible complexity? That words shape thought? That “doing monstrous things” != “monster?” Why should I bother? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/89 "2013-12-19T18:09:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > That Karl Pierson was a human being, a child, a terribly damaged person, and not a monster? Is there anything, outside of his actions that day, that show he is a “terribly damaged person”? And when does one stop being a “child”? As an aside, I don’t see how you can condemn someone for using the term monster, and then not seem to grasp how someone might condemn you for calling him “terribly damaged”. The words both you and doorhinge use to describe the shooter have implications and meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/90 "2013-12-19T18:16:12Z")
It may be a whole other debate, but doesn’t a mentally ill person bear some responsibility for not seeking help? It’s not a quantum state with totally sane on one side and full goose looney on the other, it’s a continuum with the mentally ill person gradually losing sanity. Some time during the whole transformation from a bright, well adjusted individual to somebody who thought it was a good idea to shoot a 17 year old in the face with a shotgun did he talk to a counselor or physician or his parents or somebody who might have done some good? And if he didn’t, why didn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/91 "2013-12-19T18:25:18Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Is there anything, outside of his actions that day, that show he is a “terribly damaged person”? :shrug: I’m not sure there needs to be any other evidence beyond his actions. In my experience, well-adjusted and sane people do not shoot classmates for the fuck of it. YMMV. > [@](#): > > And when does one stop being a “child”? “A young person,” then. Better? > [@](#): > > As an aside, I don’t see how you can condemn someone for using the term monster, and then not seem to grasp how someone might condemn you for calling him “terribly damaged”. The words both you and doorhinge use to describe the shooter have implications and meanings. Are you going to tell me a kid who walks into his school to wreak havoc, nearly kills a classmate, and kills himself is _not_ damaged? But no, you have a point. I don’t think I condemned **doorhinge** for his terminology, but I guess it could be seen that way if one squints. And _of course_ words have meanings. It is entirely likely that merely my repeatedly referring to Pierson as a human being instead of a monster will turn some people off. If you tell me you dismiss my posts out of hand because of the language I use, I’m not going to be butthurt about it. . ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/92 "2013-12-19T18:43:19Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Well golly gee, Pop, what should I say? > > That it’s possible to feel compassion for someone without justifying or condoning his heinous acts? > > That it’s possible to pity someone without feeling any less pity or sadness for his victim and her family? Do you feel much compassion for George Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/93 "2013-12-19T18:43:45Z")
I think there’s some essential messaging conflict when you say, “The solution to fixing these shootings is to take better care of the mentally ill,” and then turn around and insist on referring to the shooter as a “monster.” When you say someone is a monster, that implies (to me, at least) that there’s nothing “fixable” about the person, and he’s going to end up doing something horrible regardless of what you do for him. If that’s the case, what’s the point of trying to treat him at all? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/94 "2013-12-19T18:49:43Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you feel much compassion for George Zimmerman? Quite a lot, since you ask. Um, _why_ do you ask, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/95 "2013-12-19T18:51:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think there’s some essential messaging conflict when you say, “The solution to fixing these shootings is to take better care of the mentally ill,” and then turn around and insist on referring to the shooter as a “monster.” When you say someone is a monster, that implies (to me, at least) that there’s nothing “fixable” about the person, and he’s going to end up doing something horrible regardless of what you do for him. If that’s the case, what’s the point of trying to treat him at all? IMO, after you shoot a girl in the face, mentally ill or not, the title of monster isn’t undeserved. Had he lived, treated or not, he should never see the light of day. But hey, the kid’s a liberal and this is a liberal board, so you all are doing backflips for him. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/96 "2013-12-19T18:52:29Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :shrug: I’m not sure there needs to be any other evidence beyond his actions. In my experience, well-adjusted and sane people do not shoot classmates for the fuck of it. YMMV. I find that kind of thinking to be incredibly simplistic and completely circular. People without mental illnesses do all kinds of incredibly evil things, and simply concluding that doing something evil = terribly damaged ignores the entirety of human history. > [@andros](#): > > “A young person,” then. Better? Much better than child. Good thing I didn’t jump down your throat over your word choice, right? > [@andros](#): > > Are you going to tell me a kid who walks into his school to wreak havoc, nearly kills a classmate, and kills himself is _not_ damaged? Everyone is damaged. Nobody’s life is perfect. But you called him “terribly damaged” and I have not seen a single thing to indicate he suffered from any mental illness, had any extremely traumatic event, or was anything other than a short-sighted, incredibly selfish person who should be condemned for taking dangerous, harm inducing actions. > [@andros](#): > > But no, you have a point. I don’t think I condemned **doorhinge** for his terminology, but I guess it could be seen that way if one squints. > > And _of course_ words have meanings. It is entirely likely that merely my repeatedly referring to Pierson as a human being instead of a monster will turn some people off. If you tell me you dismiss my posts out of hand because of the language I use, I’m not going to be butthurt about it. If your problem with calling him a monster is about causing “butthurt”, I suggest the Pit might be better. My point was about the hypocrisy of railing on someone for using an emotionally charged word that carries implications like “monster”, while doing the exact same thing with words like “child” does nothing to support your view of the events. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/97 "2013-12-19T18:52:34Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Quite a lot, since you ask. > > Um, _why_ do you ask, exactly? Have you defended Zimmerman on this board? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/98 "2013-12-19T18:53:45Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > IMO, after you shoot a girl in the face, mentally ill or not, the title of monster isn’t undeserved. Had he lived, treated or not, he should never see the light of day. But hey, the kid’s a liberal and this is a liberal board, so you all are doing backflips for him. The kid’s a liberal? Hadn’t heard that, so I guess I’ll ask for a cite. ETA: Nevermind, it’s a diversion that serves no purpose, and I forgot to whom I was talking. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/99 "2013-12-19T18:56:10Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The kid’s a liberal? Hadn’t heard that, so I guess I’ll ask for a cite. It’s already been cited. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16939067&postcount=64](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16939067&postcount=64) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/100 "2013-12-19T19:11:13Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Unfair to whom? The poster whose words you drew unfair conclusions from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=6)