# Arapahoe school shooting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474 "2013-12-16T16:22:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/101 "2013-12-19T19:12:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > IMO, after you shoot a girl in the face, mentally ill or not, the title of monster isn’t undeserved. Had he lived, treated or not, he should never see the light of day. But hey, the kid’s a liberal and this is a liberal board, so you all are doing backflips for him. Wow, so now you’re accusing people of knowing the political affiliation of the shooter and defending him based on that? How much lower can you go? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/102 "2013-12-19T19:13:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I find that kind of thinking to be incredibly simplistic and completely circular. People without mental illnesses do all kinds of incredibly evil things, and simply concluding that doing something evil = terribly damaged ignores the entirety of human history. :shrug: OK. > [@](#): > > Everyone is damaged. Nobody’s life is perfect. But you called him “terribly damaged” and I have not seen a single thing to indicate he suffered from any mental illness, had any extremely traumatic event, or was anything other than a short-sighted, incredibly selfish person who should be condemned for taking dangerous, harm inducing actions. At least you agree he was a person and not a beast. > [@](#): > > If your problem with calling him a monster is about causing “butthurt”, I suggest the Pit might be better. My point was about the hypocrisy of railing on someone for using an emotionally charged word that carries implications like “monster”, while doing the exact same thing with words like “child” does nothing to support your view of the events. I’m not sure I presented, or need to support, “my view of the events,” but ok. You’re more than welcome to consider me hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/103 "2013-12-19T19:17:09Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Have you defended Zimmerman on this board? Just did, remember? Relevance please? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/104 "2013-12-19T19:18:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Wow, so now you’re accusing people of knowing the political affiliation of the shooter and defending him based on that? > > How much lower can you go? No so low as to be offended that one might call a murderer a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/105 "2013-12-19T19:19:49Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No so low as to be offended that one might call a murderer a bad name. That’s a massive straw man. You’re playing alot of games today. That stuff doesn’t work on me. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/106 "2013-12-19T19:20:26Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Just did, remember? In the past, without being prompted? If so please cite. > [@](#): > > Relevance please? I’m testing your sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/107 "2013-12-19T19:26:48Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No so low as to be offended that one might call a murderer a bad name. Aw, you say the sweetest things. Again, I am not _offended_ by anyone’s use of language. Nor am I offended at calling Pierson “bad names.” And I absolutely agree with you when you say > [@](#): > > Had he lived, treated or not, he should never see the light of day. I just find the use of the term “monster” to describe him to be entirely wrong-headed and reactionary. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/108 "2013-12-19T19:29:13Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > In the past, without being prompted? If so please cite. > I’m testing your sincerity. The “search” button is right on your screen. Knock yourself out. (Spoiler: I have never said _anything_ here about Mr. Zimmerman, positive or negative, prior to today. But have fun searching.) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/109 "2013-12-19T19:30:50Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I just find the use of the term “monster” to describe him to be entirely wrong-headed and reactionary. Yes, calling criminals “monsters” is a cop-out. It makes them less responsible for their crimes - monsters don’t have self-control or know right from wrong, after all - and makes us less able to understand how they were able to commit their crimes so we can prevent them. Let alone how to respond when they do. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/110 "2013-12-19T19:31:50Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I’m not sure I presented, or need to support, “my view of the events,” but ok. You don’t need to support anything you say. But don’t be surprised when it carries little to no weight. > [@andros](#): > > You’re more than welcome to consider me hypocritical. Done and done. Glad we could resolve that. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/111 "2013-12-19T19:36:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > (Spoiler: I have never said _anything_ here about Mr. Zimmerman, positive or negative, prior to today. I thought not. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/112 "2013-12-19T19:38:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You don’t need to support anything you say. But don’t be surprised when it carries little to no weight. Honestly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be supporting. My assertion that Pierson is not a monster? My belief that he was not acting in a rational manner? My belief that his actions alone are sufficient evidence to call him “damaged?” The first should be evident. The latter two are my opinions. You disagree, that’s cool. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/113 "2013-12-19T19:45:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I thought not. Horseapples. You were hoping I’d condemned Zimmerman. Without that, you’re waving around the fact that I didn’t race to “defend” him as evidence for…what? My librul hypocrisy? I’ll let you in on a little secret, just between us girls: _I wasn’t posting here during the Zimmerman arrest, trial, or subsequent brouhaha._ ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/114 "2013-12-19T19:46:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > The latter two are my opinions. You disagree, that’s cool. If you have no problem not offering any kind of support or rationale for your opinion, that’s fine too. I will now know how much weight and credence to give your opinion. I just get a bit tired of the old "this person did something bad, so he must be “terribly damaged” or is still a “child” canard that gets trotted out when bad things happen. It’s simplistic thinking and has little to no basis in a world where rational people do evil things all the time. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/115 "2013-12-19T19:51:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think there’s some essential messaging conflict when you say, “The solution to fixing these shootings is to take better care of the mentally ill,” and then turn around and insist on referring to the shooter as a “monster.” When you say someone is a monster, _**that implies (to me, at least)**_ that there’s nothing “fixable” about the person, and he’s going to end up doing something horrible regardless of what you do for him. If that’s the case, what’s the point of trying to treat him at all? (underline and bold added for clarity) That’s not the case. It sounds like your perception is a personal misconception. If you believe that there is nothing “fixable” about the person, so be it, but it’s your perception. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/116 "2013-12-19T19:52:31Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I just get a bit tired of the old "this person did something bad, so he must be “terribly damaged” or is still a “child” canard that gets trotted out when bad things happen. It’s simplistic thinking and has little to no basis in a world where rational people do evil things all the time. I understand that. “Only A Lad” is still a hell of a song. Obviously I’ve not made it clear that I do not excuse or condone Pierson’s actions in any way. So, to be clear: I do not excuse or condone Pierson’s actions in any way. But…I’m not sure how “a human being who did monstrous things” is more simplistic than “evil.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/117 "2013-12-19T19:53:03Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I just get a bit tired of the old "this person did something bad, so he must be “terribly damaged” or is still a “child” canard that gets trotted out when bad things happen. It’s simplistic thinking and has little to no basis in a world where rational people do evil things all the time. I agree. But it’s equally simplistic to say “this guy is an evil monster! He knew what he was doing, he knew right from wrong, he wasn’t crazy!” The correct answer is that we don’t know until we learn more about him. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/118 "2013-12-19T20:00:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The poster whose words you drew unfair conclusions from. And that would be… ? I’m sure you know who you are referring to but I didn’t and still don’t. Please try again. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/119 "2013-12-19T20:10:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And that would be… ? > > I’m sure you know who you are referring to but I didn’t and still don’t. Please try again. Andros, in Post 80, the one I responded to. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474/120 "2013-12-19T20:42:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > But…I’m not sure how “a human being who did monstrous things” is more simplistic than “evil.” But that’s not the only thing you said. You concluded that, by doing a monstrous thing, he must have been “terribly damaged” and a “child”. That’s what is simplistic, not concluding that he was a human being, which was kinda a given. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arapahoe-school-shooting/676474.md?page=7)