# Arbery Shooting in Georgia and Citizen's Arrest \[& similar shootings\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815 "2020-05-14T23:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/242 "2021-11-13T19:16:39Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I think that Arbery had to have been aware of _why_ people were chasing him moments after he ran out of someone else’s house that he had been in several times, so no, I don’t think that. If three men starting chasing me in a pickup, I would not cast my mind back to when I ducked my head into a construction site to get a drink of water from a faucet. Wouldn’t cross my mind that that would be a “crime” worth getting a posse together over. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/243 "2021-11-13T19:22:28Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I think that Arbery had to have been aware of _why_ people were chasing him moments after he ran out of someone else’s house that he had been in several times, so no, I don’t think that. In what way does that matter? He knew or reasonably suspected: - He had been on a property that he may not have had a right to be on. - This was not a felony. - This was probably not a misdemeanor. - Nobody had the right to arrest him. - Nobody had the right to engage in a citizen’s arrest. - The people coming after him had shown a willingness to use deadly force, in the way they used their vehicles. - The people coming after him were brandishing firearms. How does his awareness of why they were chasing him affect whether he felt reasonably in danger for his life? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/244 "2021-11-13T19:23:49Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If three men starting chasing me in a pickup, I would not cast my mind back to when I ducked my head into a construction site to get a drink of water from a faucet. Really? Becase that’s exactly what I would think. It wouldn’t happen to me, though, because I know to stay the hell off other people’s property. One, because it is the right thing to do and two _because I might get shot_. Even as a white guy, I fully believe that wandering around on someone else’s property uninvited is a very easy way to get your ass seriously kicked. People in the South take their private property seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/245 "2021-11-13T19:38:03Z")
Gotcha. They didn’t try to kidnap him just because he was black; they tried to kidnap him because he was the same race as someone who was black. That makes it totally not racist. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > People in the South take their private property seriously. Nah, the owner of the private property in question has repeatedly stated that he had no problem with Arbery at all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/246 "2021-11-13T19:45:13Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > People in the South take their private property seriously. And yet many other people had poked around the same construction site (as in fact is commonly the case everywhere.) Many were white, but the locals didn’t chase them. I wonder why that is. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/247 "2021-11-13T20:00:07Z")
You forgot to mention the Confederate flag insignia on the front of the truck running him down. And the fact that they didn’t mention making a citizens arrest or wanting to talk to him, IIRC they called him an asshole and threatened to blow his head off. I listened to the testimony regarding Bryan yesterday and, regardless of what the McMichael’s knew, he had no idea who Arbery was when he was trying to run him down with his truck and he was unaware of the incidents at the English construction site. He just had an “instinct” that the runner was up to no good. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/248 "2021-11-13T20:01:59Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > You forgot to mention the Confederate flag insignia on the front of the truck running him down. > > And the fact that they didn’t mention making a citizens arrest or wanting to talk to him, IIRC they called him an asshole and threatened to blow his head off. Yup, good catch. **Darren** , given all the things Arbery knew, are you seriously suggesting that “wandered around a construction site” is enough of a counter to all that, that he had no right to defend himself with lethal force? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/249 "2021-11-13T20:14:42Z")
I have lived my entire life in TX and other deep South states. Literally everyone I know checked out a construction site at so e point, and we never once worried about getting shot. An occupied house? Sure, maybe. But a construction site? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/250 "2021-11-13T20:38:11Z")
This has had me thinking of another incident in Georgia that I know of that happened 2009. A couple of meteorite hunters were searching someone’s land without permission. She had them arrested and the judge was going to toss them in jail except the homeowner said she didn’t care about that and was okay with them just being given the maximum possible fine. Which they were given, were told to leave the county, and told that if they wrote about it they would go to jail. > **[Meteorite hunters jailed for trespassing - The True Citizen](https://www.thetruecitizen.com/articles/meteorite-hunters-jailed-for-trespassing/)** > > Ralph (Sonny) Clary Jr. Two Southwestern meteorite hunters found fame they weren’t searching for. Just one week after Las Vegas meteorite hunter Ralph "Sonny" Clary Jr. was interviewed by WJBF news reporters in Augusta, he and Arizona hunter Michael... [https://web.archive.org/web/20160402195336/http://www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-04-08/for\_the\_record/032.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20160402195336/http://www.thetruecitizen.com/news/2009-04-08/for_the_record/032.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/251 "2021-11-13T20:41:52Z")
Totes similar. In one case, someone was going onto someone else’s land and building footbridges so they could find and remove something valuable enough that they made a “moderate living” doing so, and the land owner responded by calling a tow truck and the sheriff. In the other case, someone went onto someone else’s land for a drink of water, and neighbors responded by chasing him down and nearly (or actually) hitting him with a truck, brandishing shotguns at him, and ultimately killing him when he tried to defend himself. Was it the “shooting star” that reminded you of the shooting? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/252 "2021-11-13T21:08:33Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > It wouldn’t happen to me, though, because I know to stay the hell off other people’s property. I doubt you’re so pure, but if we try hard enough, I’m sure we can find plenty of other non-criminal things you have done. Should a posse hunt you down for Jaywalking? Not keeping “off the grass”? Fishing off season? Which of these (or other) acts justifies armed posse vigilantism and murder? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/253 "2021-11-13T21:10:24Z")
I also seriously suspect the other case had posted “no trespassing” signs. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/254 "2021-11-13T21:11:08Z")
You know what would’ve been similar? There was a period of after Arbery’s murder and before the arrests were made where the video of his murder was widely disseminated. This was evidence of a felony. Suppose that during that time a couple of truckloads of armed black activists saw the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan on the street and attempted to chase them down in order to make a citizen’s arrest. They had evidence that they’d committed a felony, after all. The evidence they had was much stronger than evidence the defendants had against Arbery. Do you think the McMichaels and Mr. Bryan, as law abiding citizens, would’ve surrendered to them? After all, they knew they killed Arbery so they shouldn’t have been surprised by the arrest attempt. They knew they’re killed a man. Do you think it would’ve been safe for them to surrender? It really does take a metric fuck ton of privilege to suggest that it would’ve been safe for Arbery to surrender to two men that were not policemen, doesn’t it? It must be nice to live in that cocoon of security. As a female, I know enough not to let myself be detained or put in a vehicle by men that are obviously not policemen, even if they claim to be. Arbery certainly had every reason to defend himself against men that were not in uniform and not driving a police vehicle who didn’t identify themselves as police because they weren’t police. Not to mention, they approached him violently, threatened him and used obscenities. Plus, they had hate symbols on their truck and looked like a lynch mob. Seriously, fuck all this white Southern redneck honor, this Oathkeeper mentality. It’s a hangover from the days when men could rape their wives and kill their wive’s lovers with impunity because “honor”. It’s an anachronism that should’ve gone the way of dueling and I hope this case ends up nailing another lid in that coffin. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/255 "2021-11-13T21:17:17Z")
Darren’s attitude is a pretty crystal clear demonstration of why Black Lives Matter is needed, both as a movement and a philosophy. Arbery likely thought that the men chasing him with a truck and shotguns meant to kill him. And it turned out they killed him. Arbery had very good reason to think that these men were chasing him with the intention to kill him. Any black man being chased by white men in a southern town (or really any town in America) almost certainly has good reason to assume that those men mean him harm. Surrender? They might kill him, because that’s what white men who chase black men in America very often do. Don’t surrender? They might kill him, or maybe he’ll escape. In any case, Arbery’s life didn’t matter – not to the men who were chasing him, not to the justice system that had to be strongarmed into prosecuting his killers, and not to those with attitudes like Darren’s which excuse white men (and others, but especially white men) who chase black men and kill them if they have even the tiniest sliver of a reason, however ridiculous and unjustified that reason is. His life should have mattered. If we really believe that his life mattered, and the lives of black men matter, then we can’t keep excusing white men who chase and kill black men on the flimsiest of justifications. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/256 "2021-11-13T21:44:46Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I think that Arbery had to have been aware of _why_ people were chasing him moments after he ran out of someone else’s house that he had been in several times, so no, I don’t think that. What, seriously? Do you think a Black guy running in a white neighborhood thinks, “these guys are chasing me because I stopped for a drink of water”? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/257 "2021-11-13T21:55:20Z")
No kidding. Whether Arbery drew the connection and deduced they were coming after him for going into the home under construction or he just had no idea, he had a reasonable fear for his life and a right to exercise self-defense when they came after him as they did. It was like being pursued by a veritable convoy, a lynch mob in miniature, brandishing firearms and displaying a confederate flag. If I were to accidentally bump into someone on the street (no injuries, just a slight nudge) and, after making my apologies (or not!) they were to begin yelling and spitting at me, cussing me out, and I were to run away, and they were to come after me brandishing a firearm… I mean, I might know _why_ they were coming after me, and on some level it might even have been my “fault” for bumping into them, but I’m pretty sure I haven’t lost my right to self-defense, or my right to life, just because I happened to chance upon an asshole with a gun who wants to blow things out of proportion and make a threat upon my life over a minor transgression. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/258 "2021-11-13T22:57:44Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Hamlet](#): > > > > Because at this point, you’re just repeating the same debunked nonsense over and over. > > Please point out where “they were shown footage of Arbury in the house, including at night, so knew what he looked like” has been debunked. As has been explained innumerable times to you, trespassing is not a felony. Jesus, you’re tiresome and dull. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/259 "2021-11-13T23:49:13Z")
This thread and the Pit thread are a super dangerous combination, man. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2021, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/260 "2021-11-14T05:27:59Z")
Just for clarification, a police did testify on the very subject at the trial. He stated that his intent was to give Arbery a warning. I.E., “Please don’t go onto the property without permission,” not, “You are such a vicious criminal that you shall be hammered with the full force of the law.” I question whether even that would have happened if the McMichaels were not, shall we say, focusing rather intently on Arbery’s routine jogs? I will grant that police officers do tend to be rather forceful when they say the first thing. A brief recap of the first week is here: [https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/nation-world/national/article255790856.html](https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/nation-world/national/article255790856.html) Edit: And a second link with much here: [WATCH LIVE: Day 6 of testimony in Arbery slaying trial](https://www.wtvy.com/2021/11/12/watch-live-day-6-testimony-arbery-slaying-trial/) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2021, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/261 "2021-11-14T05:46:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Hey, Darren, this question is pretty near the heart of the disagreement. What do you think? > > I think that Arbery had to have been aware of _why_ people were chasing him moments after he ran out of someone else’s house that he had been in several times, so no, I don’t think that. It was not “someone else’s house”. It wasn’t a house. Are you trying to elicit an emotional response by using this phrase? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=14)