# Arbery Shooting in Georgia and Citizen's Arrest \[& similar shootings\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815 "2020-05-14T23:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/322 "2021-11-23T21:27:13Z")
One had better hope that none of the **[Dancing Grannies](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/22/us/waukesha-wisconsin-parade-victims/index.html)** who were killed by Darrell Brooks in the senseless slaughter in Waukesha had poorly kept toenails. Lest Brooks have a tenable self-defense claim. Yeah. This one (the statement by defense counsel) was pretty much nauseating. One has to hope that the jurors fear that the statement went too far, and that an acquittal would paint them as putative racists. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/323 "2021-11-23T21:29:59Z")
While I’m depressing myself here, this would be a good time to wonder whether any of the anti-vax covidiots who have been shrugging off COVID deaths on the grounds that “most of those people were old and going to die soon anyway” have attempted to apply that dismissal to the deaths of Dancing Grannies mowed down by a homicidal driver. I’m not sure whether it would be more depressing if they have or if they haven’t, come to think of it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/324 "2021-11-23T21:30:01Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > One has to hope that the jurors fear that the statement went too far, and that an acquittal would paint them as putative racists. Most of them probably did. But it only takes one to prevent a guilty verdict. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/325 "2021-11-23T21:42:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think the “dirty toenails” remark is a symptom of the broader systemic and intrinsic bigotry in our society more than anything else. In a society and culture without these sorts of systemic and intrinsic bigotries, juries would see such a remark as an obvious sign of desperation, and possibly bigotry, from the defense, and attorneys wouldn’t use such tactics because they would backfire. I am inclined to agree that this might have actually hurt the defendants more than it helped them. After all, the perception of being racist doesn’t help them, it actually would be suggestive of guilt in this circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/326 "2021-11-23T21:56:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > While I’m depressing myself here, this would be a good time to wonder whether any of the anti-vax covidiots who have been shrugging off COVID deaths on the grounds that “most of those people were old and going to die soon anyway” have attempted to apply that dismissal to the deaths of Dancing Grannies mowed down by a homicidal driver. > > I’m not sure whether it would be more depressing if they have or if they haven’t, come to think of it. Don’t be silly. The alleged killer is Black. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/327 "2021-11-23T22:06:30Z")
I’m getting the impression that none of these three defendants had particularly good lawyers. Bryan, in particular, seems to have hired himself one of the proverbial good ol’ boys, the one now associated with the “black pastors” remark. But the “dirty long toenails” lawyer for the McMichaels went way over the top, too. I have to agree that the outcome of this case is really important in many different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/328 "2021-11-23T22:21:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m getting the impression that none of these three defendants had particularly good lawyers. You hire what you can afford, based on recommendations (I guess the ex-cop had some idea of who the good defense lawyers were in his area). These three yahoos weren’t getting the right-wing love that Rittenhouse did, so it came out of their own pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/329 "2021-11-23T22:22:59Z")
I agree that the defense attorneys have to put forth the best case they can: That’s the way our system is set up. And when there are no actual good cases, that means that they have to put forth whatever bad case they think will be most effective. And hoping that there’s at least one juror racist enough to hold out for at least a hung jury is, sadly, probably the best option available to the defense. So no, I can’t really be upset at the defense attorneys: They’re doing their job. But it’s still telling, if that is in fact the best argument they have available to them. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/330 "2021-11-23T22:36:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But it’s still telling, if that is in fact the best argument they have available to them. The fact that there’s a serious risk they just offended the jury in the same breath is not exactly a bad sign though. Fifty years ago, the case might not have come to trial, and there would have been people lining up to demand an acquittal. That’s a pretty significant revolution in public opinion by historical standards. Also, if board members haven’t seen the prosecution’s closing arguments, they’re pretty good at laying out the whole thing, as well as bring a pretty matter-of-fact, but methodical, destruction of the Defence. I do wonder if a plea deal was offered to the defendants in this case, and/or if they rejected one. Although I can 100% understand if you don’t as some of these videos run to over 8 hours long. I certainly haven’t been able to watch all of it myself as it would (obviously) take as long as the trial to completely see everything. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/i_kgRckdFUc/maxresdefault.jpg "Ahmaud Arbery Death Trial Day 12 - Prosecution Closing Argument by Linda Dunikoski") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_kgRckdFUc) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/331 "2021-11-23T22:37:38Z")
The toenail thing crossed the line. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/332 "2021-11-23T23:01:24Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > Fifty years ago, the case might not have come to trial, and there would have been people lining up to demand an acquittal. That’s a pretty significant revolution in public opinion by historical standards. 50 years ago? It almost didn’t come to trial last year, and likely never would have if the family had not maintained pressure, and if the defendants hadn’t released a video, thinking it exonerated them. Right now I am sure there are people watching this trial because it’s exactly what happened to their loved one, but there was no video, so “self defense” stopped the whole case cold without even an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/333 "2021-11-23T23:32:48Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > I do wonder if a plea deal was offered to the defendants in this case, and/or if they rejected one. There was a report that Bryan asked for one but was turned down by the prosecution: > **[Lawyers for Ahmaud Arbery defendant asked for plea deal, Arbery attorney says](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ahmaud-arbery-trial-william-roddie-bryan-defendant-asked-plea-deal-attorney/#app)** > > The request came from attorneys for William "Roddie" Bryan — the man who admitted to pursuing and boxing in Arbery with his vehicle before filming the fatal shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/334 "2021-11-24T16:54:58Z")
So they specifically asked someone about Arbery’s body in the hopes of finding out about something like the state of his toenails for use as “ammunition?” Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/335 "2021-11-24T17:00:13Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > So they specifically asked someone about Arbery’s body I don’t remember dad’s toenails being mentioned in his autopsy report (which the defense had a copy of), but possibly reports for a murder victim are more detailed then a cancer victim. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/336 "2021-11-24T18:43:48Z")
Greg McMichael convicted of murder. William Bryan convicted of murder. Travis McMichael convicted of murder. > **[3 men charged in Ahmaud Arbery's death convicted of murder](https://apnews.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-georgia-brunswick-f2549024973cdcc757c02bd0a07bf5cf)** > > BRUNSWICK, Ga. (AP) — Three men were convicted of murder Wednesday in the killing of Ahmaud Arbery , the Black man who was running empty-handed through a Georgia subdivision when the white strangers chased him, trapped him on a quiet street and... ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/337 "2021-11-24T18:47:05Z")
GUILTY VERDICTS: McMichael - Son: 9/9 counts McMichael - Father: 8/9 William “Roddie” Bryan: 6/9 ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/338 "2021-11-24T18:47:20Z")
Good. Pardon my lateness to the thread. Is the jury deliberating about all three defendants? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/339 "2021-11-24T18:51:08Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Is the jury deliberating about all three defendants? Not anymore. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/340 "2021-11-24T19:02:25Z")
Thank you, jurors, for getting this one right. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/341 "2021-11-24T19:03:35Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > GUILTY VERDICTS: > > McMichael - Son: 9/9 counts > McMichael - Father: 8/9 > William “Roddie” Bryan: 6/9 As mentioned in the other thread, all three also face federal hate crime charges. Trial in February. So there may yet be more to come. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=18)