# Arbery Shooting in Georgia and Citizen's Arrest \[& similar shootings\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815 "2020-05-14T23:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/121 "2020-05-20T14:38:21Z")
I do believe that that particular section refers to active use only. Otherwise, the police would not be permitted to draw their weapon while searching a house for a possible burglary suspect or confront a a suspect who won’t show their hands. There is no extremely grievous crime or escape of a detained person who committed a violent act or any of the other particularized circumstances. Surely, you are not saying that is what the law intends. Like I said, the law is poorly written. It ought to say: A police officer may ACTIVELY use a firearm as a last resort: etc. That makes sense. In any case, this is not about a police use of firearms. I was merely pointing out that I believe that police would not be breaking any laws for merely having their firearm out. I’m not saying the two guys charged would be justified. It seems they were not, based on the available information. Among the things I learned in 25 years an an LEO and especially as a homicide detective, was that things are often (indeed, hardly ever) as cut and dry as they first appear to be and a thorough investigation takes time. One other thing I learned is that people tend to believe the first version of an event that they hear and may stick to that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/122 "2020-05-20T15:30:41Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I do believe that that particular section refers to active use only. Otherwise, the police would not be permitted to draw their weapon while searching a house for a possible burglary suspect or confront a a suspect who won’t show their hands. There is no extremely grievous crime or escape of a detained person who committed a violent act or any of the other particularized circumstances. Surely, you are not saying that is what the law intends. Like I said, the law is poorly written. It ought to say: A police officer may ACTIVELY use a firearm as a last resort: etc. That makes sense. That would be incredibly poor writing to define passive and active use, and in the very next line give condition for use (without specifying you mean active use). One use of a firearm is “a) to defend a person and him/herself from a threat to their lives and/or health”. If there’s a suspect who won’t show their hands, might that comprise a threat? If there’s a suspect in a house who may be armed, is that a threat? I don’t think that applies in this case, as there was no indication that Arbery was armed, his hands were almost certainly visible (he was jogging in shorts). Police cannot, to the best of my knowledge, draw their weapons on someone running away from a construction site. Passive use of firearms requires justification. In fact, police have extensive training on when they’re allowed to use firearms, passively and actively. McMichaels Sr. kept skipping that training. > [@](#): > > In any case, this is not about a police use of firearms. I was merely pointing out that I believe that police would not be breaking any laws for merely having their firearm out. I’m not saying the two guys charged would be justified. It seems they were not, based on the available information. Among the things I learned in 25 years an an LEO and especially as a homicide detective, was that things are often (indeed, hardly ever) as cut and dry as they first appear to be and a thorough investigation takes time. One other thing I learned is that people tend to believe the first version of an event that they hear and may stick to that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I didn’t realize you were an officer. In your LEO trainings on when you could draw your firearm, what conditions were you given? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/123 "2020-05-20T17:23:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That’s the thing…it should never have been a “powder keg” to begin with. > > When I was a kid my friends and I would poke around homes under construction all the time. Really, it was a favorite thing since in the 70’s there wasn’t much else to do (before computers, only five TV channels, etc…we ran around outside a lot). They are really kind of interesting to check out. See the bones of a house. Neat stuff. > > We never caused damage or stole anything but I would hate to think I would have gotten shot for it because someone before me had stolen something and now the site was a “powder keg” and some overzealous neighborhood watch person comes at us with a gun and looking for trouble. > > Also, getting shot over theft at a construction site seems a bit much. Who here thinks the death penalty is the appropriate punishment for stealing from a construction site (assuming that even happened)? Who here is ok with the local neighborhood watch becoming judge, jury and executioners all in the space of a couple minutes for what _might_ have been (in their view) a theft at a construction site? > > Raise your hand and be counted. I’ll be counted. If their life is worth so little to them that they would enter my home uninvited, their life means less than it does to them, to me. So they should expect the possibility of death to come from that choice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/124 "2020-05-20T17:37:34Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I’ll be counted. If their life is worth so little to them that they would enter my home uninvited, their life means less than it does to them, to me. So they should expect the possibility of death to come from that choice. For an unoccupied home under construction? Why on Earth would you want to kill someone who entered an unoccupied home under construction? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/125 "2020-05-20T18:26:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For an unoccupied home under construction? Why on Earth would you want to kill someone who entered an unoccupied home under construction? Because he is an anonymous person on the internet? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/126 "2020-05-20T19:14:37Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I’ll be counted. If their life is worth so little to them that they would enter my home uninvited, their life means less than it does to them, to me. An unoccupied construction site is not a home. There are no lives to be protected there, so deadly force is not warranted. Especially, if the person never harmed or threatened any person or property, ESPECIALLY if they have already vacated the premises. As someone on Twitter said, I don’t care if he hoisted the house on his back and was running away with it. That doesn’t give anybody the right to hunt him down and kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/127 "2020-05-20T19:34:00Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I’ll be counted. If their life is worth so little to them that they would enter my home uninvited, their life means less than it does to them, to me. So they should expect the possibility of death to come from that choice. By the same token, if a person’s freedom is worth so little to them that they’d murder someone for walking into a construction site, their freedom means less to me. So they should expect the possibility of life without parole to come from that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/128 "2020-05-20T19:35:54Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > As someone on Twitter said, I don’t care if he hoisted the house on his back and was running away with it. That doesn’t give anybody the right to hunt him down and kill him. I wondered about this. If they assumed Arbury had stolen something wouldn’t it be obvious he was carrying something away? Arbury was jogging. Not a lot of room to hide things on his person. Power tools generally don’t fit in a pocket. What is there on a construction site that is worth stealing that you could walk away with and no one would notice you carrying? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/129 "2020-05-20T19:44:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I wondered about this. > > If they assumed Arbury had stolen something wouldn’t it be obvious he was carrying something away? > > Arbury was jogging. Not a lot of room to hide things on his person. Power tools generally don’t fit in a pocket. What is there on a construction site that is worth stealing that you could walk away with and no one would notice you carrying? My understanding is that they had no idea he had been wandering on that construction site that day. Rather, he “matched the description” of someone who had been burgling houses in the neighborhood. “Matched the description” no doubt refers to shoe size or handedness, not skin color because that would be racist. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/130 "2020-05-20T20:17:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > My understanding is that they had no idea he had been wandering on that construction site that day. Rather, he “matched the description” of someone who had been burgling houses in the neighborhood. “Matched the description” no doubt refers to shoe size or handedness, not skin color because that would be racist. Those would be the “burgling” that there was no report of by any police department, or… by anyone. The “burgling” that only occurred when the murderers needed a post hoc excuse for why they hunted and killed the guy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/131 "2020-05-21T00:17:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Those would be the “burgling” that there was no report of by any police department, or… by anyone. The “burgling” that only occurred when the murderers needed a post hoc excuse for why they hunted and killed the guy. Yeah, I should have put the scare quotes around that, too. I would really love for **Kearsen1** and **Darren Garrison** to address some of the replies to their posts, because both of those posts are controversial, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/132 "2020-05-21T12:24:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > By the same token, if a person’s freedom is worth so little to them that they’d murder someone for walking into a construction site, their freedom means less to me. So they should expect the possibility of life without parole to come from that choice. True! All choices come with repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/133 "2020-05-21T12:29:25Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > An unoccupied construction site is not a home. There are no lives to be protected there, so deadly force is not warranted. > > Especially, if the person never harmed or threatened any person or property, ESPECIALLY if they have already vacated the premises. > > As someone on Twitter said, I don’t care if he hoisted the house on his back and was running away with it. That doesn’t give anybody the right to hunt him down and kill him. Although I do agree that theft, or burglary of an unoccupied space is way less threatening than someone breaking into a home I or my family lives in, that CRIME still comes with the likelihood of some sort of response. I would agree that death would be too harsh a punishment, absent some other added details. A home under construction can mean lots of things. Open air construction sites of houses are only “open”, not dried in or roofed and closed, for the first month or so. If the house was dried in, there is always the possibility of someone being there and why would they make a choice like that, knowing what the possible outcome is? With all that said, No, he shouldn’t have been chased down and killed for that. But that isn’t what has been reported. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/134 "2020-05-21T12:59:09Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > …But that isn’t what has been reported. True! He reportedly did nothing at all, as far as the alleged murderers knew. They stated that he matched the description of someone who committed some imaginary burglaries. Right? Or, did you mean something else? ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/135 "2020-05-21T19:34:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That would be incredibly poor writing to define passive and active use, and in the very next line give condition for use (without specifying you mean active use). > > One use of a firearm is “a) to defend a person and him/herself from a threat to their lives and/or health”. If there’s a suspect who won’t show their hands, might that comprise a threat? If there’s a suspect in a house who may be armed, is that a threat? > > I don’t think that applies in this case, as there was no indication that Arbery was armed, his hands were almost certainly visible (he was jogging in shorts). Police cannot, to the best of my knowledge, draw their weapons on someone running away from a construction site. Passive use of firearms requires justification. > > In fact, police have extensive training on when they’re allowed to use firearms, passively and actively. McMichaels Sr. kept skipping that training. > > I didn’t realize you were an officer. In your LEO trainings on when you could draw your firearm, what conditions were you given? Mind you, I don’t live and never worked in Georgia so I can’t address what goes on down there. From NJ Attorney General’s Policy A. Constructive Authority 1. Constructive authority does not involve actual physical contact with the subject, but involves the use of the law enforcement officer’s authority to exert control over a subject. 2. Examples include verbal commands, gestures, warnings, and unholstering a weapon. 3. Pointing a firearm at a subject is an element of constructive authority to be used only in appropriate situations. and D. Exhibiting a Firearm 1. A law enforcement officer shall not unholster or exhibit a firearm except under any of the following circumstances: a. For maintenance of the firearm; b. To secure the firearm; c. During training exercises, practice or qualification with the firearm; d. When circumstances create a reasonable belief that it may be necessary for the officer to use the firearm; e. When circumstances create a reasonable belief that display of a firearm as an element of constructive authority helps establish or maintain control in a potentially dangerous situation in an effort to discourage resistance and ensure officer safety As you can see, there is no requirement that a violent crime be suspected. It is a pretty low bar to get over to draw and point a weapon. Much, much higher to actually use it. A suspected burglar, even an empty handed one in shorts and t-shirt, might find himself looking at the wrong end of a gun. An officer who repeatedly draws his weapon unreasonably will probably find himself out of a job in short order. A citizen pointing a weapon at someone (in other than a legitimate self-defense scenario) is likely to result in an aggravated assault charge. To repeat, all indications are that these two guys were acting unlawfully and I am not defending them. More like nitpicking the “police” aspect of the post. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/136 "2020-05-21T19:43:37Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Mind you, I don’t live and never worked in Georgia so I can’t address what goes on down there. > > From NJ Attorney General’s Policy > > A. Constructive Authority > > 1. Constructive authority does not involve actual physical contact with > the subject, but involves the use of the law enforcement officer’s > authority to exert control over a subject. > > 2. Examples include verbal commands, gestures, warnings, and > unholstering a weapon. > > 3. Pointing a firearm at a subject is an element of constructive > authority to be used only in appropriate situations. > and > > D. Exhibiting a Firearm > > 1. A law enforcement officer shall not unholster or exhibit a firearm > except under any of the following circumstances: > > a. For maintenance of the firearm; > > b. To secure the firearm; > > c. During training exercises, practice or qualification with the > firearm; > > d. When circumstances create a reasonable belief that it may > be necessary for the officer to use the firearm; > > e. When circumstances create a reasonable belief that display > of a firearm as an element of constructive authority helps > establish or maintain control in a potentially dangerous > situation in an effort to discourage resistance and ensure > officer safety Thanks. That’s interesting, and reads really differently to me than the Georgia code does. The last point in the quote seems far too broad, and definitely broader than the authority contained in the Georgia code. As you say, the folks in question weren’t cops. Discussing when cops can display a weapon establishes (I think) an upper bound to what would be allowed by a civilian, so it’s pertinent to the discussion in that regard. That is, if a cop would be allowed to display a weapon, that doesn’t establish that these killers were allowed to do so; but if even Georgia cops wouldn’t be allowed to display a weapon, certainly it wasn’t allowable for these killers to wave a shotgun around. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/137 "2020-05-21T21:34:27Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Although I do agree that theft, or burglary of an unoccupied space is way less threatening than someone breaking into a home I or my family lives in, that CRIME still comes with the likelihood of some sort of response. I would agree that death would be too harsh a punishment, absent some other added details. A home under construction can mean lots of things. Open air construction sites of houses are only “open”, not dried in or roofed and closed, for the first month or so. If the house was dried in, there is always the possibility of someone being there and why would they make a choice like that, knowing what the possible outcome is? > > With all that said, No, he shouldn’t have been chased down and killed for that. But that isn’t what has been reported. This whole thing feels like a dodge. There is a huge implied “but” in what you wrote. You agree no one should be killed for theft from an unoccupied space BUT “crime comes with a likelihood of response” (with “response” having a big question mark next to it). You can drive a truck through that loophole. “Well, I was responding to the person trespassing and he threatened me so I shot him.” I don’t want to assume your opinions for this so please tell me: When, in your view, is lethal force appropriate by Joe Citizen (i.e. not law enforcement)? In your view how can Joe Citizen reliably decide when the line to using lethal force has been crossed? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/138 "2020-05-21T22:28:42Z")
Has it even been established yet that there was a “no trespassing” sign (or equivalent) at the site? If there was no sign, there was no crime at all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/139 "2020-05-21T22:34:52Z")
[The guy who filmed Mr. Arbury’s death has been charged with his murder](https://apnews.com/6ddb1bc1bb83a928006c970e9fb1d00f). > [@](#): > > The Georgia man who filmed cellphone video of Ahmaud Arbery’s fatal shooting was arrested Thursday and charged with murder in his death. > > The Georgia Bureau of Investigation said 50-year-old William “Roddie” Bryan was arrested on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. > [@](#): > > Bryan lives in the same subdivision, and the video he took from the cab of his vehicle helped stir a national outcry when it leaked online. Bryan’s attorney, Kevin Gough, did not immediately return a phone message. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815/140 "2020-05-21T23:17:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [The guy who filmed Mr. Arbury’s death has been charged with his murder](https://apnews.com/6ddb1bc1bb83a928006c970e9fb1d00f). I’ll never understand why the guy filming all of this didn’t delete it the instant Arbery was shot. I’m glad he didn’t since it means these creeps can be prosecuted. I really think it goes to show how racist assholes somehow do not see themselves as racist. Somehow, in their heads, this was all fine and as it should be. And that is really fucked-up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arbery-shooting-in-georgia-and-citizens-arrest-similar-shootings/853815.md?page=8)