# Archaeopteryx may not be a bird **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511 "2011-07-27T17:25:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/1 "2011-07-27T17:25:03Z")
Clades are always fuzzy things around the edges, but new papers are saying archaeopteryx belongs on the theropod (dinosaur) side of the fuzzy line. [Here’s a report on the new paper from Nature.](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v475/n7357/full/475458a.html) Short version - new discoveries of theropods in China show that previously thought ‘bird-unique’ qualities were not. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/2 "2011-07-27T20:02:55Z")
I’m not surprised. Ever since I first heard about feathered theropods, I’ve wondered when A was going to be relegated to their ranks. Although I’m certainly no expert, no breastbone and apparently flightless means “dinosaur” to me. (Yes, yes, I know moas and emus and kiwis and that big thing with the O name are flightless birds.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/3 "2011-07-27T20:38:30Z")
Not surprising. We may never find the ancestor of modern birds among the variations of feathered dino-ish creatures. Archy and the Chinese feathered friends are surely related to the modern birds, but who knows what the line of descent was. The first ‘bird’ was probably quite small, and possibly living in an environment that is no longer accessible. We only know about these finds from the chance deaths of the animals over some mud flats that fossilized their remains. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/4 "2011-07-27T20:45:40Z")
Not surprising, but sad. \*Archie \*was still an important find, and came at just the right time (just a couple of years after Darwin’s _Origin of Species_ was published). I still get sentimental over Pluto, too. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/5 "2011-07-27T20:53:30Z")
I wonder if this will affect the ‘ground up vs. tree down’ debate? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/6 "2011-07-27T21:00:41Z")
“first bird” was always too specific a label to apply to any fossil. The most important fact is that A. will fit right into our understanding of the evolutionary process and as a result of these recent findings we will know more and be able to refine the model. science marches on. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/7 "2011-07-27T21:08:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > “first bird” was always too specific a label to apply to any fossil. True enough, but if Archie moves to the dinosaur side of the line, there’s an excellent chance he’ll no longer even be a direct ancestor of birds - some other chain of species could easily lead from _ancestor of bird_ to _proto-bird_ to _obviously bird_ without ever going through _archeopteryx_. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/8 "2011-07-27T21:13:40Z")
Right, it’s more likely that Archie is a grand-uncle rather than grandfather of modern birds. In fact it’s hard to pick out _any_ fossil species as being a true ancestor of any modern species. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/9 "2011-07-27T21:15:38Z")
Suddenly, all those BC comics become irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/10 "2011-07-27T21:36:51Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > I wonder if this will affect the ‘ground up vs. tree down’ debate? Is anyone left on the ‘ground up’ side? ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/11 "2011-07-28T02:32:18Z")
What’s wrong with the ‘ground up’ version? It’s always been the one that made sense to me, even though I’m basing it solely on my observations of my pet birds attempting to scale couches and the random Discovery Channel documentary on the ‘debate’. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/12 "2011-07-28T02:46:25Z")
> [@bup](#): > > True enough, but if Archie moves to the dinosaur side of the line, there’s an excellent chance he’ll no longer even be a direct ancestor of birds - some other chain of species could easily lead from _ancestor of bird_ to _proto-bird_ to _obviously bird_ without ever going through _archeopteryx_. Archie was never the direct ancestor of modern birds, really. It was considered a close relative of that ancestor, however. This paper removes even that distinction, but keep in mind that there is sill a big “if” involved: “_If this new phylogenetic hypothesis can be confirmed by further investigation_, current assumptions regarding the avialan ancestral condition will need to be re-evaluated.” So, we’ll have to wait and see. > [@PlainJain](#): > > I wonder if this will affect the ‘ground up vs. tree down’ debate? Really, this has been a false dichotomy for some time, and not really a useful question anyway; neither proposal is testable. The real question is simply “how did the flight stroke evolve”. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/13 "2011-07-28T02:47:24Z")
So are today’s birds effectively the last dinosaurs, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/14 "2011-07-28T02:49:21Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Suddenly, all those BC comics become irrelevant. Surely you mean Archie comics? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/15 "2011-07-28T02:50:14Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > So are today’s birds effectively the last dinosaurs, or not? They are considered dinosaurs, yes. Whether they are the “last” dinosaurs remains to be seen 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/16 "2011-07-28T08:44:42Z")
> [@Darwins\_Finch](#): > > Really, this has been a false dichotomy for some time, and not really a useful question anyway; neither proposal is testable. The real question is simply “how did the flight stroke evolve”. I’d say that although not testable, given the current evidence, both methods provide plausible paths to powered flight. Of course what we all crave is more about the intermediate steps which, eventually, will allow us to be more and more certain about the actual path taken. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/17 "2011-07-28T10:01:51Z")
It’s all a matter of definitions. To quote a paleontologist interviewed by Swedish public radio this morning: “If we define a bird as an animal with feathers, then it is one”. The interviewer tried to add “and flies”, but was promptly reminded of ostriches and their ilk. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/18 "2011-07-28T10:35:26Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > …and that big thing with the O name… Ornithologist? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/19 "2011-07-28T14:55:38Z")
…and now, my 5h grade teacher has to fail me (31 years after the fact) on my science presentation on “the First Bird”. Damn! ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511/20 "2011-07-28T15:21:03Z")
_GROAN_ As high a profile case as _Archaeopteryx_ is, I can’t fucking wait until the creationist shitheads intentionally misunderstand this and start their inevitable HAW-HAWing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaeopteryx-may-not-be-a-bird/590511.md?page=2)