# Archaic words perserved in stock phrases **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 8, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125 "2013-04-08T01:53:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/1 "2013-04-08T01:53:35Z")
I’m thinking of certain words that are only used in stock phrases, quoting from an old novel, that sort of thing. Ex: “Thou doth protest too much.” Is there a word for this phenomenon? Examples in languages other than English? ---
**Author:** ![apollonia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/2 "2013-04-08T02:01:40Z")
Is this the phenomenon you’re thinking of? [Fossil words.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_word) Things like “fettle” when saying “in fine fettle” or “shrift” in “short shrift” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/3 "2013-04-08T02:04:13Z")
[One fell swoop](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fell) ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/4 "2013-04-08T03:24:28Z")
Tit for tat. Also, a slew of technology terms…your phone _rings_ when you _dial_ it. Your keyboard has a _shift_ key. To save a file, you click the floppy disk icon. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/5 "2013-04-08T03:48:16Z")
My favorite is, ‘ **To call a spade a spade** ’. There are a number of meanings to spade, but most imagine it to be the implement rather than, say, the card. Actually, it derives from an archaic word for barren, as in unable to conceive. The original — and it’s prolly Jacobean, since they were really in to hearty saltiness back then — was: _To call a Maid a Maid, and a Spade a Spade_ differentiating betwixt virginity and sterility. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/6 "2013-04-08T03:52:35Z")
Five minutes being to little to add: **Spade** survives in the modern variant, \*Spayed \*; more usually applied to animals both in word and deed. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/7 "2013-04-08T04:24:37Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Tit for tat. [What is tat?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/924/whats-the-origin-of-tit-for-tat) Cecil tells all. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/8 "2013-04-08T05:15:56Z")
Hoisted by your own petard. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/9 "2013-04-08T05:49:55Z")
metes and bounds - one way to describe a piece of land ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/10 "2013-04-08T05:59:17Z")
“Smite”. “Begat” and “begotten” Used pretty much exclusively in Biblical quotes or references to them. Or deliberately archaic speech; “Smite evil!” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/11 "2013-04-08T06:00:54Z")
I’d actually never heard of “fettle” or the associated phrase until now. “At your beck and call,” sort of, even though I assume the relationship with “beckon” makes “beck” not quite a lost word. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/12 "2013-04-08T06:01:28Z")
Hail and well met. Hale and hearty. Godspeed. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/13 "2013-04-08T06:12:12Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Tit for tat. > > Also, a slew of technology terms…your phone _rings_ when you _dial_ it. Your keyboard has a _shift_ key. To save a file, you click the floppy disk icon. These are also known as skeuomorphs, or a design choice not necessary in the current version but retained to provide a more familiar experience for the user. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/14 "2013-04-08T06:34:03Z")
Filthy lucre ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/15 "2013-04-08T09:53:30Z")
I’d say “the straight _dope_” is close to being one at this point. Nowadays we almost never use “dope” in that sense without the “straight.” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/16 "2013-04-08T10:02:21Z")
**Rent** in **twain**. “Twain” is practically married to two contexts: phrases that mean “cut in two” and the phrase “… and never the twain shall meet.” The verb “to rend” is a tiny bit more common (and is used in fantasy sometimes), but it’s still pretty fossilized. I’d say that “rent in twain” is probably one of the few places the average person is likely to encounter it. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/17 "2013-04-08T10:14:36Z")
“Beg” in “To beg the question” means “sidestep.” I don’t think anybody uses it that way anymore, and most people don’t know what they’re saying when they use the expression. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/18 "2013-04-08T11:27:54Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > “Beg” in “To beg the question” means “sidestep.” I don’t think anybody uses it that way anymore, and most people don’t know what they’re saying when they use the expression. That’s not quite right. “To beg the question” means to assume what you are trying to prove; “question” refers to the resolution being debated (as in "we now take up the question “Is chocolate better than vanilla”). “Beg” in the phrase still makes “to request” - the complete phrase would be better expressed as “To ask that one’s position on the question at hand be accepted from the start” ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/19 "2013-04-08T11:33:05Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > “Beg” in “To beg the question” means “sidestep.” I don’t think anybody uses it that way anymore, and most people don’t know what they’re saying when they use the expression. Well, sorta. The phrase itself [is idiomatic](http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbegthe.html), based on a misleading translation. I think from the idiom the verb “beg” picked up the secondary meaning of “sidestep.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/20 "2013-04-08T11:44:54Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > That’s not quite right. “To beg the question” means to assume what you are trying to prove; “question” refers to the resolution being debated (as in "we now take up the question “Is chocolate better than vanilla”). “Beg” in the phrase still makes “to request” - the complete phrase would be better expressed as “To ask that one’s position on the question at hand be accepted from the start” No. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125.md?page=2)