# Archaic words perserved in stock phrases **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 8, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125 "2013-04-08T01:53:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/21 "2013-04-08T11:46:12Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > That’s not quite right. “To beg the question” means to assume what you are trying to prove; “question” refers to the resolution being debated (as in "we now take up the question “Is chocolate better than vanilla”). “Beg” in the phrase still makes “to request” - the complete phrase would be better expressed as “To ask that one’s position on the question at hand be accepted from the start” Virtually every etymology of the expression says otherwise, including the cite provided by Earl. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/22 "2013-04-08T11:50:03Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Well, sorta. The phrase itself [is idiomatic](http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbegthe.html), based on a misleading translation. I think from the idiom the verb “beg” picked up the secondary meaning of “sidestep.” It seems like he’s confusing etymology of the expression with an archeology of an idea, and losing any claim on etymology in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/23 "2013-04-08T12:16:22Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Virtually every etymology of the expression says otherwise, including the cite provided by Earl. What part of Earl’s cite disagrees with what I wrote? This paragraph from Earl’s cite seems to me to be exactly what I said: " “Question” here does not mean “a sentence in interrogative form”. Rather, it means “the point at issue, the thing that the person is trying to prove”. The phrase is elucidated by William Fulke in “Heskins parleamant repealed” (1579): “O shameless beggar, that craveth no less than the whole controversy to be given him!” " ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/24 "2013-04-08T12:19:40Z")
My post was about the word “beg”. This argument is a digression. Believe whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/25 "2013-04-08T12:21:54Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > My post was about the word “beg”. This argument is a digression. Believe whatever you want. "The phrase is elucidated by William Fulke in “Heskins parleamant repealed” (1579): “O shameless beggar, that craveth no less than the whole controversy to be given him!” " ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/26 "2013-04-08T12:28:55Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > No. Dio…? Just going by the links in this thread, I don’t think you’ve shown that “beg” has ever meant “sidestep.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/27 "2013-04-08T12:37:51Z")
> **[sidestep](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/sidestep)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of sidestep by The Free Dictionary > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com?date=19970627)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading. > **['Beg the question' - the meaning and origin of this phrase](https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beg-the-question.html)** > > The meaning and origin of the phrase 'Beg the question'. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/28 "2013-04-08T12:39:37Z")
I didn’t think it was necessary to provide a bunch of links because up until my post people were just giving the words asked for in the OP and nobody was getting their ass climbed into by think-they-know-it-all little prigs. Sorry for participating. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/29 "2013-04-08T13:11:03Z")
“The proof is in the pudding.” We think of proof as being a definitive noun, and so this really doesn’t make sense, but the correct, longer version of the saying is “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Even that version didn’t quite make it for me until someone pointed out that it’s proof as in “proving ground”. That is, proof is not the very last thing which makes the verdict undoubtable. It’s the testing of whatever it is you’re trying to prove. The proof [testing of how good a cook/how good your recipe/how good your ingredients] of the pudding is in the eating. You won’t know how good the pudding is until you eat it. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/30 "2013-04-08T13:34:39Z")
Speaking of **proof** , proof had another meaning of test. _To prove the rule_ referring to exceptions, doesn’t mean the said exception proves it in the modern sense, but that it tests the rule , as in strains it by being the opposite of the given order. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/31 "2013-04-08T13:39:14Z")
Someone was ‘beside him/herself,’ meaning ‘really angry.’ “Beside” has as one of its older meanings “outside,” so it’s really meaning “outside himself.” The verse that that is taken from in the New Testament would be better translated as “out of his head.” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/32 "2013-04-08T14:56:31Z")
“Don we now our gay apparel.” Who “dons” things now? And what about “gay apparel”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/33 "2013-04-08T15:18:43Z")
“Kith and kin” “Lo and behold” ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/34 "2013-04-08T15:50:41Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I’d say “the straight _dope_” is close to being one at this point. Nowadays we almost never use “dope” in that sense without the “straight.” Well, I still hear people, when they are trying to figure out the answer to a problem, say they’re going to “dope out” the answer. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/35 "2013-04-08T15:53:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > “Don we now our gay apparel.” > > Who “dons” things now? And what about “gay apparel”? I once wrote a story about a cross-dresser named “Don Wenow” that John Barth read and asked me about the funny names, like “Don Wenow” and then a light bulb went over his head, and he smiled. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/36 "2013-04-08T15:58:33Z")
Does anybody know what a “kaboodle” is? Or has anyone ever heard the word used WITHOUT being preceded by “kit and”? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/37 "2013-04-08T16:02:29Z")
Have you ever heard the word “bated” without the word “breath”? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/38 "2013-04-08T16:10:41Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Does anybody know what a “kaboodle” is? Or has anyone ever heard the word used WITHOUT being preceded by “kit and”? Yes, when it’s preceded by “[kitten](http://www.kittenkaboodle.com/)”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Renifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@Renifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renifer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/39 "2013-04-08T16:12:54Z")
**Wrought** is rarely used anymore except for “wrought iron” or Samuel Morse’s message “What hath God wrought?” **Handbasket**. (“Going to hell in a handbasket”) ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/40 "2013-04-08T16:19:08Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Speaking of **proof** , proof had another meaning of test. _To prove the rule_ referring to exceptions, doesn’t mean the said exception proves it in the modern sense, but that it tests the rule , as in strains it by being the opposite of the given order. That is actually not the [derivation](http://www.snopes.com/language/notthink/exception.asp), but a common incorrect origin story. “The exception proves the rule” comes from a legal principle meaning “if someone makes an exception to a rule, there must have been a rule in the first place”. For example a sign saying “No Parking 10PM to 7AM” implies that parking is permitted at other times. The exception (no parking at certain times) proves the rule (parking is generally permitted). This meaning of “prove” is pretty close to the modern sense of the word. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125.md?page=3)