# Archaic words perserved in stock phrases **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 8, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125 "2013-04-08T01:53:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/41 "2013-04-08T16:27:33Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I didn’t think it was necessary to provide a bunch of links because up until my post people were just giving the words asked for in the OP and nobody was getting their ass climbed into by think-they-know-it-all little prigs. Sorry for participating. People are allowed to ask for cites around here, even selectively. Please refrain from throwing a tantrum if they do. Thanks, **twickster** , MPSIMS moderator ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/42 "2013-04-08T16:30:49Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > That is actually not the [derivation](http://www.snopes.com/language/notthink/exception.asp), but a common incorrect origin story. > > “The exception proves the rule” comes from a legal principle meaning “if someone makes an exception to a rule, there must have been a rule in the first place”. For example a sign saying “No Parking 10PM to 7AM” implies that parking is permitted at other times. The exception (no parking at certain times) proves the rule (parking is generally permitted). > > This meaning of “prove” is pretty close to the modern sense of the word. Cecil on this subject [What’s the meaning of the expression, “That’s the exception that proves the rule?” - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/731/whats-the-meaning-of-the-expression-thats-the-exception-that-proves-the-rule) "Cicero was defending one Bilbo. (No relation to Frodo.) Bilbo was a non-Roman who was accused of having been illegally granted Roman citizenship. The prosecutor argued that treaties with some non-Roman peoples explicitly prohibited them from becoming Roman citizens. The treaty with Bilbo’s homeboys had no such clause, but the prosecutor suggested one should be inferred. Nonsense, said Cicero. “Quod si exceptio facit ne liceat, ubi non sit exceptum …” Oops, I keep forgetting how rusty folks are on subjunctives. Cicero said, if you prohibit something in certain cases, you imply that the rest of the time it’s permitted. To put it another way, the explicit statement of an exception proves that a rule to the contrary prevails otherwise." ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/43 "2013-04-08T16:35:16Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > We think of proof as being a definitive noun, and so this really doesn’t make sense, but the correct, longer version of the saying is “the proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Even that version didn’t quite make it for me until someone pointed out that it’s proof as in “proving ground”. That is, proof is not the very last thing which makes the verdict undoubtable. It’s the testing of whatever it is you’re trying to prove. “Proof” is still used in this sense outside of the pudding context, although the uses are somewhat specialized. You sometimes proof yeast, for example, by mixing it with water to verify that it’s still live before using it in your recipe. You proofread text. You print proofs, test copies of material to check for errors, before doing a full print run, though I don’t know that anyone does actual galley proofs anymore. > [@astorian](#): > > Have you ever heard the word “bated” without the word “breath”? Yes, in relation to hawks. It refers to a bird beating its wings in agitation, usually in an attempt to escape. Again, it’s admittedly a pretty specialized usage. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/44 "2013-04-08T17:01:28Z")
I haven’t heard most of these phrases in ten or twenty years (and even then it was somebody trying to sound either insufferably quaint or hopelessly old fashioned), so I’m not sure they’re really being preserved. They’d probably die off if we’d all stop making reference to them in threads like this. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/45 "2013-04-08T17:32:19Z")
How about “Wherefore art thou Romeo?” Wherefore certainly isn’t used in modern English anymore, and most people don’t realize it means “why”, as in “the whys and wherefores”. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/46 "2013-04-08T17:48:34Z")
‘Jetsam’- does it ever appear without ‘flotsam’? I’ve seen flotsam used by itself occasionally, but never t’other. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/47 "2013-04-08T17:54:54Z")
How about “boot” as in “boot the computer” to start it? It’s only a few decades old, but everyone younger than me looks at me like I’m a quaint old geezer when I say (and any other computerisms circa 1990). ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/48 "2013-04-08T18:33:30Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > **Rent** in **twain**. > > “Twain” is practically married to two contexts: phrases that mean “cut in two” and the phrase “… and never the twain shall meet.” > > The verb “to rend” is a tiny bit more common (and is used in fantasy sometimes), but it’s still pretty fossilized. I’d say that “rent in twain” is probably one of the few places the average person is likely to encounter it. Also, the somewhat related word **‘cleave’** which I use in normal conversation when warranted, has fallen into diminished use. The thing I find fascinating about **cleave** , which is probably why I began using it in the first place, is it can mean to either split apart, or cling together, depending on context. To Split: “With a mighty swing, Jack cleaves the base of the trunk in two.” To Cling: “She cleaves to another man…” (5 points if you can guess the movie this is from, without cheating) ---
**Author:** ![Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrogance_ex_machina/32/192_2.png) [@Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrogance_Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/49 "2013-04-08T19:12:36Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Also, the somewhat related word **‘cleave’** which I use in normal conversation when warranted, has fallen into diminished use. “Cleave” and some other examples like “fell”, are being preserved in the role-playing game jargon. Though it never means cling together there. Just did a quick Google search and maybe 1/3 - 1/4 of the top hits were RPG related. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/50 "2013-04-08T19:37:59Z")
Feelin’ Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/51 "2013-04-08T19:58:47Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Feelin’ Groovy. Oh, come on, now, groovy is hep! I mean, it’s da Bomb! ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/52 "2013-04-08T20:19:04Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > ‘Jetsam’- does it ever appear without ‘flotsam’? I’ve seen flotsam used by itself occasionally, but never t’other. I think the word is used by itself in maritime law. Jetsam is cargo or equipment that has been deliberately thrown overboard. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/53 "2013-04-08T20:32:05Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > To Cling: “She cleaves to another man…” (5 points if you can guess the movie this is from, without cheating) [Dead Zone](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085407/), one of Walken’s best performaces, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/54 "2013-04-08T20:40:26Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Virtually every etymology of the expression says otherwise, including the cite provided by Earl. No. In fact, **Earl** ’s cite specifically says: > [@](#): > > Many people unaware of the technical meaning of “to beg the question” in logic use it in one of two looser senses. The first of these, "to evade the question, to duck the issue… At best, your etymology is “loose”, which is a polite way of saying “wrong”. The links you provided do not support your claim, either. Only the Free Dictionary offers “beg the question” as a synonym for “sidestep” and that is a user-generated source. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/55 "2013-04-09T00:20:03Z")
“Wax” as a verb meaning “to grow” is almost never heard outside of phrases like “She waxed poetic” (or discussions of the moon’s phases). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/56 "2013-04-09T00:25:08Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Also, the somewhat related word **‘cleave’** which I use in normal conversation when warranted, has fallen into diminished use. > > The thing I find fascinating about **cleave** , which is probably why I began using it in the first place, is it can mean to either split apart, or cling together, depending on context. > > To Split: “With a mighty swing, Jack cleaves the base of the trunk in two.” > To Cling: “She cleaves to another man…” (5 points if you can guess the movie this is from, without cheating) A few years ago, there was a heated argument on USENET - someone who had never heard of the second meaning of “cleave” accused someone of using the word incorrectly, and then got more and more deranged in insisting that it was an obscure meaning that no one should know (see here if you’re interested [http://groups.google.com/group/misc.writing/browse\_frm/thread/d02dd9c3823123b0](http://groups.google.com/group/misc.writing/browse_frm/thread/d02dd9c3823123b0)) ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/57 "2013-04-09T08:28:53Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > “Wax” as a verb meaning “to grow” is almost never heard outside of phrases like “She waxed poetic” (or discussions of the moon’s phases). Well, you can also wax eloquent. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/58 "2013-04-09T15:25:18Z")
> [@Renifer](#): > > **Handbasket**. (“Going to hell in a handbasket”) As exemplified [here](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/Clothahump/Cat_BRB.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/59 "2013-04-09T15:32:29Z")
“Wont” to mean “inclined or accustomed to”, as in “as we are wont to do”. I just used that in a thread I started today. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125/60 "2013-04-09T15:58:46Z")
> [@StJoan](#): > > Well, you can also wax eloquent. And wax lyrical, and occasionally wax wroth, but outside those (fairly rare) stock phrases, people just don’t wax much (in the sense of “to grow”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/archaic-words-perserved-in-stock-phrases/655125.md?page=4)