# Arctic ice twice the area of the UK melted last week **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119 "2007-09-05T14:06:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/1 "2007-09-05T14:06:32Z")
From [_The Guardian:_](http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/sep/04/climatechange) > [@](#): > > The Arctic ice cap has collapsed at an unprecedented rate this summer and levels of sea ice in the region now stand at record lows, scientists have announced. > > Experts say they are “stunned” by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone. > > So much ice has melted this summer that the Northwest passage across the top of Canada is fully navigable, and observers say the Northeast passage along Russia’s Arctic coast could open later this month. > > If the increased rate of melting continues, the summertime Arctic could be totally free of ice by 2030. > > Mark Serreze, an Arctic specialist at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University in Denver, said: “It’s amazing. It’s simply fallen off a cliff and we’re still losing ice.” > > The Arctic has now lost about a third of its ice since satellite measurements began thirty years ago, and the rate of loss has accelerated sharply since 2002. > > \ > > Changes in wind and ocean circulation patterns can help reduce sea ice extent, but Dr Serreze said the main culprit was man-made global warming. > > “The rules are starting to change and what’s changing the rules is the input of greenhouse gases.” Now, the melting of **arctic** ice, which is free-floating in the first place, does not by itself threaten a rise in sea levels. But what does this bode for the Antarctic and Greenland ice caps?! ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/2 "2007-09-05T14:48:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Now, the melting of **arctic** ice, which is free-floating in the first place, does not by itself threaten a rise in sea levels. But what does this bode for the Antarctic and Greenland ice caps?! [/QUOTE] Well, I blame Al Gore. 😉 I’ve been sure for quite some time that I’d see dramatic geographic change in my lifetime. I’m more sure than ever, now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/3 "2007-09-05T19:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Now, the melting of **arctic** ice, which is free-floating in the first place, does not by itself threaten a rise in sea levels. But what does this bode for the Antarctic and Greenland ice caps?! [/QUOTE] Dunno about them, but the melting of the Arctic icecap will accelerate global warming. Ice, after all, is an excellent reflector. Sunlight hits the icecap, and while some of it is absorbed and turned into heat, most of it gets reflected back into space. When sunlight instead hits the dark waters of the Arctic Ocean, a lot less is reflected out, and a lot more of the light gets absorbed as heat. Hey, I’ve got a great idea: [let’s go to the moon and Mars!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=435187) ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/4 "2007-09-05T19:59:04Z")
Good. I’m really getting tired of cold winters. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/5 "2007-09-05T20:46:47Z")
Good thing we moved away from the coast. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/6 "2007-09-05T21:57:00Z")
This might be a good thing: -arctic ports (like Churchill, Canada) are able to ship grain to Europe-closer than East Coast ports by 1000 miles. -Mining operations in the high Arctic now would be economically feasible-world’s largest deposit of iron ore on Bffin Island -Siberian Ports can now ship to Europe, USA -Boreal forests expand northwards-more timber available. -Growing season longer in Northern Hemisphere ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/7 "2007-09-05T22:14:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGluttonNow, the melting of **arctic** ice, which is free-floating in the first place, does not by itself threaten a rise in sea levels. [/QUOTE] Not strictly true according to an article I read recently. > **[Melting of Floating Ice Will Raise Sea Level](https://phys.org/news/2005-08-ice-sea.html)** > > When ice on land slides into the ocean, it displaces ocean water and causes sea level to rise. People believe that when this floating ice melts, water level doesn’t rise an additional amount because the freshwater ice displaces the same volume of... Salt water is denser than fresh water, so there will be a slight increase from floating ice melting as well. Otara ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/8 "2007-09-05T22:27:39Z")
[QUOTE=Otara] Not strictly true according to an article I read recently. > **[Melting of Floating Ice Will Raise Sea Level](https://phys.org/news/2005-08-ice-sea.html)** > > When ice on land slides into the ocean, it displaces ocean water and causes sea level to rise. People believe that when this floating ice melts, water level doesn’t rise an additional amount because the freshwater ice displaces the same volume of... Salt water is denser than fresh water, so there will be a slight increase from floating ice melting as well. Otara [/QUOTE] 😕 But isn’t the icecap made of frozen **salt** water? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/9 "2007-09-05T22:30:10Z")
> [@](#): > > But what does this bode for the Antarctic and Greenland ice caps?! I’d say that in the case of Greenland its pretty conclusive that its melting as well. IIRC on one of the shows on Discovery or the Science Channel someone was claiming its nearly back to where it was when the Vikings colonized it…and the speed its melting seems to be accelerating. Antartica is pretty much the same proposition…I remember seeing comparisons of satelite pictures showing how much things have changed there. I’d say that anyone who is still in denial that GW is happening, regardless of the cause, is being willfully ignorant at this point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/10 "2007-09-05T22:31:18Z")
[QUOTE=BG] But isn’t the icecap made of frozen salt water? [/QUOTE] Of course. ed (woops…didn’t mean of course not there) From Wiki: > [@](#): > > Sea ice is formed from ocean water that freezes. Because the oceans consist of saltwater, this occurs at about -1.8 °C (28.8 °F). -XT ---
**Author:** ![AmalgramFour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@AmalgramFour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmalgramFour)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/11 "2007-09-05T22:36:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 But isn’t the icecap made of frozen **salt** water? [/QUOTE] Not all of it. Any snow that falls on the ice cap will be from fresh water. I have no idea what the proportions are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/12 "2007-09-05T22:51:21Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] This might be a good thing: -arctic ports (like Churchill, Canada) are able to ship grain to Europe-closer than East Coast ports by 1000 miles. -Mining operations in the high Arctic now would be economically feasible-world’s largest deposit of iron ore on Bffin Island -Siberian Ports can now ship to Europe, USA -Boreal forests expand northwards-more timber available. -Growing season longer in Northern Hemisphere [/QUOTE] I’ll be sure to pass along those assurances to the peoples of the Pacific islands, New York City, the Netherlands, New Orleans, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/13 "2007-09-06T01:38:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😕 But isn’t the icecap made of frozen **salt** water? [/QUOTE] Not as such. Because of the way ice forms, it will have a lower salt content than sea water. As crystals of ice form, it tends to force salt ions out, so the water ends up being less salty than the solution it comes from. The remaining salt forms more concentrated brine, which then tends to sink out of the ice into the ocean below, due to it still being a liquid, unless it gets trapped. I may have that wrong, but thats my understanding. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/14 "2007-09-07T22:56:28Z")
From what I’ve seen and heard there’s no hope, but maybe we can prepare and adapt. How do we tell developing countries like China and India that they don’t get their turn on the merry-go-round, because the climate system can only withstand that level of consumption in Europe, the Anglosphere, and Japan? On the NG channel I saw a climatologist last night who said there was some reason to hope, based on the fact that we gave up using lead in pretty much everything, and environmental lead had dropped to almost nothing. As he put it, we realized the lead was making us stupid, so we gave it up. Too bad we were stupid on lead when we decided to throw away most of our mass transit systems and switch to car-dependent lifestyles. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/15 "2007-09-07T23:47:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’ll be sure to pass along those assurances to the peoples of the Pacific islands, New York City, the Netherlands, New Orleans, etc., etc. [/QUOTE] At the current much faster rate of sea level rise, how long do you think before the sea level rises 1 meter? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/16 "2007-09-08T06:49:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Experts say they are “stunned” by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone. Wait a minute here: _“Experts say they are “stunned” by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone.”_ Is that for real? Is that accurate? Cause that sounds like a _WHOLE BUNCH_ of ice, _REA_L fast… I know we are losing ice fast, but that fast?? And how much ice are they talking about, anyway, in terms of volume? “Twice the area of the UK” merely specfies an area. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/17 "2007-09-08T07:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shamozzle] Wait a minute here: _“Experts say they are “stunned” by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone.”_ Is that for real? Is that accurate? Cause that sounds like a _WHOLE BUNCH_ of ice, _REA_L fast… I know we are losing ice fast, but that fast?? And how much ice are they talking about, anyway, in terms of volume? “Twice the area of the UK” merely specfies an area. [/QUOTE] And it doesn’t compare to how much ice usually melts, as of course the artic ice cap usually reduces greatly during the _summer_. :dubious: The _exact same wording_ is used in quite a few news reports. Not one I could find cites an original scientific source- other than the Guardian. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/18 "2007-09-08T07:34:40Z")
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090602499.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090602499.html) > [@](#): > > The Arctic ice cap is melting faster than scientists had expected and will shrink 40 percent by 2050 in most regions, with grim consequences for polar bears, walruses and other marine animals, according to government researchers. > > The Arctic sea ice will retreat hundreds of miles farther from the coast of Alaska in the summer, the scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration concluded. That will open up vast waters for fishermen and give easier access to new areas for oil and gas exploration. It is also likely to mean an upheaval in species, bringing new predators to warmer waters and endangering those that depend on ice. > > The study, by NOAA oceanographer James Overland and meteorologist Muyin Wang, adds to the increasingly urgent predictions of major ice loss in the Arctic. Six years ago, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted major ice loss by 2100. An update by that United Nations-sponsored panel in February said that without drastic changes in greenhouse gas emissions, Arctic sea ice will “almost entirely” disappear by the end of the century. > > But Overland’s calculations are based largely on the carbon dioxide that already has been pumped into the atmosphere. That pollution will greatly diminish the ice by 2050, regardless of future curbs on emissions, he said yesterday. > > “The amount of emissions we have already put out in the last 20 years will stay around for 40 to 50 years,” Overland said. “I’m afraid to say that a lot of impacts we will see in the next 30 to 40 years are pretty much already established.” ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/19 "2007-09-08T07:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] This might be a good thing: -arctic ports (like Churchill, Canada) are able to ship grain to Europe-closer than East Coast ports by 1000 miles. -Mining operations in the high Arctic now would be economically feasible-world’s largest deposit of iron ore on Bffin Island -Siberian Ports can now ship to Europe, USA -Boreal forests expand northwards-more timber available. -Growing season longer in Northern Hemisphere [/QUOTE] In other news, birds report being tarred and feathered “only half bad”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119/20 "2007-09-08T10:48:28Z")
While I appreciate panic as much as the next guy, I must ask, with respect to this business of “twice the size of the UK:” how much ice melted in an equivalent time period 20 years ago? Fifty years ago? And what’s the delta betwen those figures and now? That description is dramatic, but it doesn’t tell us how much “should” have melted, as melting occurs every summer. More melted than expect, yes – but how much more? Not “an area the size of the UK.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-ice-twice-the-area-of-the-uk-melted-last-week/418119.md?page=2)