# Arctic melting... Hey! We can get us some more oil! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 16, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038 "2004-11-16T11:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/21 "2004-11-16T17:12:53Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Actually, many people can. I have my choice of electric utilities, one of which is a utility that gets most (if not all) of their power from “green” sources. In 1999, there was a company calling itself “Green Power”. They called my house all the time waiting for deregulation in California to kick in. One day I decided to find out from the caller just _how_ “green” their power was. The initial answer was something astronomical(for the situation), like 60%. So I merely asked if that was a guarantee. The answer was ‘no’. The truth is, that they get a very small percentage of power from sources considered to be green. Something on the order of 1-5% would be considered ‘normal’. It took like 15 minutes and a supervisor to get the truth from them. Sam ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/22 "2004-11-16T17:44:19Z")
Here’s some information from the Canadian government on reducing your energy consumption (it may well interest you in the US as well): [http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/onetonne/english/](http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/onetonne/english/) ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/23 "2004-11-17T09:34:18Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Sadly, it seems that the American public has shown at the ballot box that they would rather fuck up their environment (well, it’s near Canada, so it doesn’t really matter) than pay two dollars a gallon at the gas pumps. Sigh… Yes, some of ANWR is near Canada. The proposed exploration zone (they haven’t even gotten to the where the new “Prudhoe Bay” will be located phase, not by a LONG shot) however, is in a tiny crescent shaped gravel beach near the Chukchi sea. The area, in comparison with the entirety of ANWR is less than 1 half a percent of the land mass of ANWR proper. The Porcupine Caribou herd DOES migrate through the southeast corner of that little beach during calving season. However, contrary to the pscyho bunny huggers propaganda (which is obviously working quite well on those in the Lower 48), they don’t all squat and drop their calves at the same point in time, on that same tiny beach on the same exact area. Parts of the proposed exploration are a wildlife protection/anti-hazing etc section which address shutting down operations and leaving clear areas for this very migration. The oil companies at Prudhoe (contrary to Steven Segal movies) all have environmental compliance as one of their top issues, they pay companies like mine a great deal of money to make sure that they are not only in compliance, but go far above and beyond what the feds require. Prudhoe has a huge variety of animals right in and around the complexes. The buidlings and equipment themselves were all designed to be mobile and removeable at the end of those oil fields production lifespan. And as part of the agreement with the state, and the native corporation whose land it actually is (the oil companies only lease it), they have a land restoration plan already IN place which requires them, not by federal standards, but by the standards of the natives who live there, to return it to what it was when they started. A similar, but of course MUCH more modern plan is also part of the proposed exploration request to the native corporation that owns the land near ANWR and to the feds who govern it as a refuge. And, the Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation is rabid about enforcing even household hazmat issues in AK. They also have a say in the final contingency plans regarding safety and environmental concerns. Yes, accidents do happen. Natural oil spills do also occur in the oceans, caused by earthquakes and other geological events. Other ecological disasters do happen, and have been happening since the beginning of time completely without man’s help. That is not to say that there shouldn’t be efforts made for alternate energy sources, but to stop all efforts on this end because that isn’t being done is illogical. How is the oil industry to accomplish that?? They aren’t physicists, that’s not their expertise. The alternate energy sources, if and when they are funded and allowed to be developed, will need to come from an industry and from those who have the know how in THAT field of study. It’s not an either/or situation, at least not at this point. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/24 "2004-11-17T09:45:39Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Forget it. I’ve made a few posts where I challenged people to fill a glass half full of ice, top it off with water, let the ice melt and note the water level. It’s never acknowledged. There’s emotion on this subject, facts be damned. However, the ice at the Antarctic sits on a continental shelf. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/25 "2004-11-17T09:48:53Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Not that this applies to me, of course. I just like paying less. > > Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to have my car upholstered with the skin of beaten seal pups. > > Actually, I’d be interested in a solid cite showing that power plants meeting US environmental standards are a significant source of greenhouse gases (as opposed to, say, cars, trucks, third-world power plants without polution controls, etc.). Ain’t the number one greenhouse gas water? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/26 "2004-11-17T09:57:09Z")
Sorry, I meant to include this in my last post. [http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/1100/prudhoe.html](http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/1100/prudhoe.html) The above is a collection of pictures and notes from a “Sloper” (a person who works at Prudhoe Bay). The third picture down shows one of the facilities. As you can see, it is almost as if they set the complex down on the top of the tundra. I’m not sure if this site shows it, but the buildings aren’t on any sort of building pad or anything, they’re all on sets of stilt like thingies (then they have paneling around to help insulate). The wind is DARN cold when it comes sweeping in under your room and if you’re on the first floor!!! Now, this guy has got a lot of great animal pictures, he must be a longtime employee, I only spent about 5 months on and off on different projects and spread out over a few years, so I didn’t get to see nearly the variety he’s got here, but I have gotten to see some of the fox (they’re ADORABLE) and the Caribou and in the summer some of the waterfowl, gorgeous creatures. At any rate, THIS, not some widespread destruction of the whole of ANWR is what is proposed if they even find enough to make it worthwhile. Remember, they haven’t even done the exploratory phase yet, they may not even drill if it won’t pan out. Well, this only better that is. These complexes were designed and put into place when Prudhoe went online in the 70s, and then some of them, like the one in the picture, more recently, so the plans for minimal environmental impact are designed to be even more modern, effective and ultimately leave even less of an impact on the drilling area than is Prudhoe’s. I hope that helps a little. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/27 "2004-11-17T10:29:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Ain’t the number one greenhouse gas water? Water vapour has a more ‘greenhousey’ thermal characteristics, but that is irrelevant since it is largely in **equilibrium**. Methane and CO[sub]2[/sub] are not quite as ‘greehousey’ but are being forced way, way **off** equilibrium, [anthopogenically](http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/large/02.01.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/28 "2004-11-17T12:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **duffer** :I’m getting tired of the “sky is falling” mindset that a few degrees per century would be the end of life as we know it. As has been proven, we’ve made it through the latest Ice Age unscathed. It’s such a slow change that life adapts. Humanity would not likely become _extinct_ if another Ice Age occurred, no, but “unscathed”? We should surely try to _avoid_ any abrupt change (like the one [11,000 years ago](http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/abrupt.html)) if we possibly can, do you not agree? (The [FBI](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html) certainly does.) Your point about natural cycles is perfectly valid, but the point is that we might well be **hastening** the ‘tipping point’ by releasing vast quantities of greenhouse gases in just a few centuries which would otherwise have taken millennia to escape. The general consensus is that a [rise of 2[sup]o[/sup]C from today](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3975325.stm) would take us into the danger area of possible abrupt climate change, and that we could _prevent_ atmospheric CO[sub]2[/sub] levels reaching that 450ppm danger point, at least for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/29 "2004-11-17T12:59:33Z")
Interesting stuff, **CanvasShoes** , thanks. At the risk of putting a GQ in the BBQ Pit, I was intrigued by this stat: > [@](#): > > Shortest Day: > 1 hour, 3 min. > Offical sunrise: 11:42AM - 24th of November > Offical sunset: 12:27PM - 24th of November Surely the sunset and sunrise times don’t both change by over half an hour in the space of one day? How come the “day” of 25 November isn’t about, say, 45 mins long? Does the day length really tail off that quickly as you enter the winter darkness? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/30 "2004-11-17T14:06:43Z")
**Colophon** , you might be interested in the following: [Mars is experiencing both global warming and vanishing icecaps.](http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2524877,00.html) Now, please explain to me how increased fossil fuel consumption and the failure of the US to sign the Kyoto accords is causing warming _on another planet entirely_. Also, please explain how we would be insulated from similar effects if the cause of this phenomenon on Mars is solar activity. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/31 "2004-11-17T15:04:25Z")
Nobody says that climate change cannot occur on other planets, or has not occurred on this planet in the past **Mr Moto**. The question is whether the current change is being _accelerated_ by [anthropogenic forcing](http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/large/02.01.jpg) of greenhouse gases way off equilibrium. If the warming _is_ solely due to solar activity, it has coincided with the vast increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases _remarkably_ closely (although this is of course not _impossible_.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/32 "2004-11-17T15:29:02Z")
I wonder, though, if this correlation between greenhouse gases is as close as the correlation this graph of solar activity versus average temperature would indicate. [http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html](http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html) Interesting, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/33 "2004-11-17T15:47:07Z")
It is entirely likely that the Earth would heal itself from any global warming/ice age activity that went on, be it from natural cycles or human effects. Humans, though, are not likely to have a very fun time of it. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/34 "2004-11-17T16:04:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting, huh? Interesting indeed - if it is the _sole_ cause and greenhouse gases have _zero_ effect, I agree that we can do little about it. But if _both_ have an effect, then seeking to reduce the anthropogenic forcing would appear to be a sensible precaution. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038/35 "2004-11-17T16:19:53Z")
Didn’t see this posted, so I thought I’d share. The worries about arctic ice melting are that it will disrupt [thermohaline](http://www.climate.unibe.ch/~christof/div/fact4thc.html) [circulation](http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/thc.html). [Nifty image here](http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/32.htm). Basically the amount of fresh water released into the ocean from the melting ice disrupts or stops the circulation of warmer waters, resulting in climate change. [Here’s](http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/page.cfm?pageID=1405) another cite with some nifty Q&A about the effects. Yeah, it’s the science behind _The Day After Tommorow_, but try not to dismiss it because of Roland Emmerich. 😉 I’m not going to say for sure that I think humanity is the cause, but I do think that there is reason to be concerned and careful about it. Certainly a cut back in fossil fuels cannot be a bad thing, what with it being a dreadfully finite resource and all. And I’m sure humanity can survive a bit of a climate nudge. I just don’t think it’ll be very pleasant. sayeth the Krusty the Wise > [@](#): > > I think the living would envy the dead. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-melting-hey-we-can-get-us-some-more-oil/275038.md?page=1)