# Arctic Shabbat
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [October 10, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414 "2000-10-10T15:31:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 16
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/1 "2000-10-10T15:31:14Z")
Does anyone know when shabbat begins and ends when there is no sunrise or sunset, or even during the periods of extremely long days and nights which can be found in places like St. Petersburg (with a larger Jewish population than northern Norway, I would think)?
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### Author:  [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/2 "2000-10-10T15:50:30Z")
WARNING: Post contains no real substance.
What a fabulous question.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/3 "2000-10-10T16:04:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by TheThill \*
> \*\*Does anyone know when shabbat begins and ends when there is no sunrise or sunset, or even during the periods of extremely long days and nights which can be found in places like St. Petersburg (with a larger Jewish population than northern Norway, I would think)? \*\*
It is a complicated issue in Jewish law with no clear answer yet arrived yet.
I heard a lecture from Rabbi Frand in which he deals with these issues and concludes that Orthodox Jews should not live in these areas.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/4 "2000-10-10T16:15:24Z")
I thought this would be a frivolous question, but I was quit mistaken.
As long as one is not north of the arctic circle (or south of the antarctic) the day/night cycle is more extreme than in the tropics but the time from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday is still the same. I’m sure St. Petersburg orthodox Jews don’t have a problem with that. Get farther than 66½° north or south of the equator and it may become an issue.
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### Author:  [@JoltSucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoltSucker)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/5 "2000-10-10T16:16:16Z")
Does this mean that Orthodox Jews should not travel to outer space? To other planets?
For that matter, should a space-faring Orthodox Jew decline to fire thrusters on Shabbat if it is not a matter of life and death?
If the solution for Orthodox Jews to travel in space is to use a clock, should they calculate “sunset” by Jerusalem time?
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### Author:  [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/6 "2000-10-10T16:28:27Z")
The northernmost Jewish community of which I am aware is in my previous hometown of Trondheim, Norway (which is further north than St. Petersburg). At that latitude, the sun still rises and sets all year 'round, even though it doesn’t get truly dark in the summer. So it would be possible for the Sabbath to be celebrated from sundown to sundown even at midwinter or midsummer. Am I missing another complication?
The very long and very short days _do_\* pose a problem for Scandinavia’s Moslem communities, however, in the case of the fasting connected to Ramadan. As far as I understand, the general attitude is that the self-denial of fasting is far more important than the actual position of the sun, so each imam declares arbitrary fast times for the faithful of his mosque.
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### Author:  [@RickG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickG)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/7 "2000-10-10T18:45:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \*
> \*\*
> I heard a lecture from Rabbi Frand in which he deals with these issues and concludes that Orthodox Jews should not live in these areas.
>
> Zev Steinhardt \*\*
Wow. I had heard the response “there are just some places Jews shouldn’t go” before, but as a _joke_. I had no idea that this was an actual _psak halacha_ (legal ruling). Thanks, Zev!
[hijack]
The question about space reminds me of one of my favorite jokes (which someone will no doubt come along to tell better). Stop me if you’ve heard it…oh, wait you can’t…cool:
The first observant Jewish astronaut to fly in the Space Shuttle returns to Earth looking horrible. When concerned reporters at the post-mission briefing ask him why he seems to have fared so poorly compared to the other astronauts on the flight, he responds in a scratchy, barely audible voice:
“It was terrible. Every 90 minutes, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv,…”
Hey, it always gets a laugh at kiddush…
::Ducking and running::
[/hijack]
L’shana tovah to all (and to all a good night, you’ve been a great audience),
Rick
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/8 "2000-10-10T19:05:53Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by JoltSucker \*
> \*\*Does this mean that Orthodox Jews should not travel to
> outer space? To other planets?
\*\*
In his lecture, Rabbi Frand spoke on this topic as well. He brought in some sources that indicated that the astronaut should use the local time that he took off from. But, again, there is no concensus of Halachic authorities on how this is to be handled.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> For that matter, should a space-faring Orthodox Jew decline to fire thrusters on Shabbat if it is not a matter of life and death?
\*\*
Ideally, an Orthodox Jew should not put him/herself in a position where this is going to be a problem to begin with.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> If the solution for Orthodox Jews to travel in space is to use a clock, should they calculate “sunset” by Jerusalem time? \*\*
This was not mentioned in Rabbi Frand’s lecture. The only “artificial” time he mentioned was the local time the astronaut took off from.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/9 "2000-10-10T19:48:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by TheThill \*
> > \*\*Does anyone know when shabbat begins and ends when there is no sunrise or sunset, or even during the periods of extremely long days and nights which can be found in places like St. Petersburg (with a larger Jewish population than northern Norway, I would think)? \*\*
>
> It is a complicated issue in Jewish law with no clear answer yet arrived yet.
>
> I heard a lecture from Rabbi Frand in which he deals with these issues and concludes that Orthodox Jews should not live in these areas.
>
> Zev Steinhardt \*\*
One of the many reasons it is more fun to be a reformed Jew than Orthodox or Hassid, I get to travel in space or live in a polar region not to mention spending far less on tableware. And since I’m still a Heebe, I get to tell all my Gentime friends that we really do have sex through a hold in a sheet. Three out of ten believe me. hehehe, stupid Gentiles.
mmmmm, bacon is good.
zen101
D.F.A.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/10 "2000-10-10T19:53:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by zen101 \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \*
> > \*\*
> >
> > > [@](#):
> > >
> > > \*Originally posted by TheThill \*
> > > \*\*Does anyone know when shabbat begins and ends when there is no sunrise or sunset, or even during the periods of extremely long days and nights which can be found in places like St. Petersburg (with a larger Jewish population than northern Norway, I would think)? \*\*
> >
> > It is a complicated issue in Jewish law with no clear answer yet arrived yet.
> >
> > I heard a lecture from Rabbi Frand in which he deals with these issues and concludes that Orthodox Jews should not live in these areas.
> >
> > Zev Steinhardt \*\*
>
> One of the many reasons it is more fun to be a reformed Jew than Orthodox or Hassid, I get to travel in space or live in a polar region not to mention spending far less on tableware. And since I’m still a Heebe, I get to tell all my Gentime friends that we really do have sex through a hold in a sheet. Three out of ten believe me. hehehe, stupid Gentiles.
>
> mmmmm, bacon is good.
> zen101
> D.F.A.
>
> \*\*
DNFTT
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)
#### Post date: [October 10, 2000, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/11 "2000-10-10T23:41:54Z")
There is a Jewish community in Murmansk, which is above the Arctic circle. See [http://www.groningen.nl/wonen\_en\_leven/dia655p3.htm#jood](http://www.groningen.nl/wonen_en_leven/dia655p3.htm#jood)
> [@](#):
>
> The Jews in Murmansk would like to learn about their religious
> customs and backgrounds, because a lot of this knowledge got lost.
Maybe they **don’t** really want to know after all. If they learned too much, they might have to move. (Come to think of it, maybe they wouldn’t mind leaving Murmansk. 😃 )
I wonder if there might also be Jews living in other cities in Arctic Russia or in Tromsö or Narvik, Norway.
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/12 "2000-10-11T00:47:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by RickG \*
> \*\*“It was terrible. Every 90 minutes, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv,…”
>
> \*\*
Say what?
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### Author:  [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2000, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/13 "2000-10-11T01:53:45Z")
this was a problem in russia and alaska for the orthodox church which also goes sundown to sundown. they came to the decision that in areas that have unusual sun, they would use 6pm to 6pm. i always wondered what the jewish ruling was. thank you, zev steinhardt. i’ll use the “have to move” idea on my mum the next time we argue about 6pm or sundown.
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### Author:  [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2000, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/14 "2000-10-11T03:03:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Rysdad \*
> \*\*
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by RickG \*
> > \*\*“It was terrible. Every 90 minutes, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv, shachrit, mincha, ma’ariv,…”
> >
> > \*\*
>
> Say what? \*\*
_Shachrit_: Morning prayers
_Mincha_: Afternoon prayers
_Ma’ariv_: Evening prayers.
The space shuttle makes a complete orbit every 90 minutes.
Zev Steinhardt
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### Author:  [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/15 "2000-10-11T04:32:58Z")
You know, **Zev** that may be the only joke in existance that is just as funny after you explain it.
:waiting… waiting… waiting:
Get it?
[sub](Sorry, **RickG**!)[/sub]
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### Author:  [@TheThill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheThill)
#### Post date: [October 11, 2000, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/arctic-shabbat/36414/16 "2000-10-11T16:26:07Z")
Yes of course, if there is a sunset, you can follow it whatever time it is, but it might cause practical difficulties if one had to wait until 1 a.m. to welcome shabbat.
As for the matter with the astronauts, the answer is obvious. Liftoff after havdalah (off to the first three stars, I suppose), and land sometime early Friday to leave enough time to get home.
Somehow I doubt there could ever be strictly orthodox astronauts.