Although I am sure this thread didn’t go in the direction the OP was hoping for, I found it very informative. Thanks to those that contributed.
So can we post this persons name so I have some idea what the heck you’re all talking about?
It says who she is in the cite ZipperJJ provided.
XXY is Klinefelter’s syndrome, which results in a taller than average, somewhat “feminized” male. It also has a strong association with learning disabilities, although not all such men are learning disabled. Likewise, although sterility is associated with this disorder, I believe there have been instances of Klinefelter men becoming biological fathers.
There are also XXXY, XXXXY, and other variations on this theme.
In theory, you could have someone with both Klinefelter’s and AIS at the same time, and it probably has happened at some point in history, but prior to the 20th Century there would be no way to diagnose this.
One famous Klinefelter person is known as Tula - she achieved some notoriety as a “Bond Girl”. This person was born with XXXY chromosomes and, apparently, somewhat ambiguous genitals. The medical establishment in Britain declared the baby male and the baby was raised as such. Then, in the teen years, this person decided he was really a she and underwent surgery to, um, remove some of the ambiguity. Tula strutted about poolside in one of the Bond films in a skimpy bikini, virtually indistinguishable from the other girls in the film. There were some rather tragic aspects to her life - at least one marriage was annulled after her husband discovered her medical history. Not sure what’s happening with her now.
As for pictures of XY AIS women - for some reason, these women seem very hesistant to display their pictures with the “AIS” label slapped on them. Maybe it’s because they have had enough of people questioning their feminitiy or telling them their “really men who look like women”.
While not quite on the OP, I’ve been told many leg models, e.g. for (womens’) stockings etc. are realy (shaved) men - because men have longer calfs and legs than women. Remember that next time you find yourself salviating over the latest lingerie catalouge!
/Rune
They find out because they’re sterile and cannot have children.
It must have been XXX then, not XXY. I cant remember exactly it was a few years ago and I havent done genetics for ages. Anyway he definitely mentioned air hostesses, if anyone can back me up here…
Might not have been XXX either. Hmm, I’m confused now…
Are there women with normal XX chromosones who are also ‘immune’ to ‘male’ hormones, and so have similar traits but presumably are able to procreate.
Are there XY men who are ‘immune’ to ‘female’ hormones? and what effect does that have on such people?
Seriously -
Natural Full Body Wax
Long Legs
Big Boobs
Feminine Looks
Jesus H. - Sounds like the only problem people used to have with these folks is jealously.
There was a “girl” in my grade school who was rumored to be XXY. She was very boyish in appearance, and had a very tomboyish attitude. I also seem to remember that she got into trouble pretty often. My school had uniforms, with those plaid skirts for the girls, and … well … let’s just say that you could be forgiven for wondering when Catholic schools started allowing students to cross-dress.
After reading the quote above, it sounds like she was really a boy, but her parents were trying to raise her as a girl. Unfortunately, it seems like this was most definitely the wrong choice, and I’ve got to assume that this kid ended up with serious psychological problems.
Okay, I’m lost. Please type s-l-o-w-l-y. I thought if you were xy, you were automatically a man, but you’re saying they’re women. Wouldn’t at least some of them identify as a man?
Also, if they’re xy, can they marry legally?
(I’ve never heard of this…sorry to be so uninformed.)
By any chance is this thread a result of someone having read “Middlesex” by Jeffrey Eugenides? He makes the contention about the models in his book.
BTW, it’s an excellent read.
Kalhoun – some people are XY genetically but don’t have male sexual organs. They have what appears to be a vagina and I’m not sure if they can actually have one (I think not) or if it’s just an opening (a cloaca), and they don’t have a uterus. They physically appear to be female but are genetically male. Sometimes kids are born this way and appear female and then after a certain period of time, the truth comes to light (perhaps when they are still children, or possibly when they go for fertility testing, or when they don’t menstruate at a normal age.
Broomstick is far more knowledgeable about this than I am so he can probably explain it a lot better. But in a nutshell, that’s what an “XY woman” is. They wouldn’t identify as men, at least at first, because physically they appear to be women, and don’t have male sexual organs.
In my high school there was a very feminine guy. So feminine that we didn’t really know if “it” was a he or a she until we saw “it” go to the boys bathroom. There was also a very masculine girl. We knew she was a girl, but we figured she could out-armwrestle most of the boys in the school.
6 months after graduation, they married. I don’t know what genetic disorder the boy had, but he appeared to be too far outside the norm to have no genetic disorder.
But back to the question a few people have asked. If you want pictures of people with various genetic conditions, go to a medical library. Once there, you can search journals using the full version of medline (as opposed to the more limited free version, called PubMed), then either hit the shelves (if it is an older article, or from a journal that isn’t online) or just click on the search result and see the online version.
Here’s an example of an online journal article dealing with a Klinefelter’s patient. As a former “library gopher” when my wife was a graduate student in genetics, I can tell you there are a lot of interesting articles and books in and related to genetics. My wife had a book listing “normal” ranges of measurement for various body parts (i.e. distance between eyes, head circumference, and many more, um, interesting parts).
One difference. As adam yax has mentioned, people with CAIS may have undescended testes. Sometimes, these cases were found out during surgery during the pre-genetic and chromosomal knowledge days.
People with CAIS identify as women. I’d be interested to know if there is a single case study of a CAIS-er who identified as a man. On the other hand, people with Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, where there is some sensitivity to androgen, may have external genitalia that is female, male, or ambigious in appearance, and may identify as either gender.
You recall that when chromosomes are combined (one from each parent), one is selected and the other ignored? The sex chromosome is different. The “Y” is pretty short and lacking a lot of needed material, so an XY still leaves the “X” turned on. If for some reason the “Y” isn’t working quite right, you will appear to be female, but genetically be male. There is a similar condition (with vastly different results) called Turner Syndrome, where you are born with either one “X” (and that’s it!) or “XX” and one X is defective. Turner generally results in a short-status petite woman who is infertile.
There is more than one way to determine gender, and which method you choose can yield different results. For many years, the olympics did gender testing, and they used a few different methods.
People tend to think of sex as a binary choice; you are a man or a woman. It isn’t so in reality.
I’m not well-versed enough in this stuff to get things exactly right (but my wife is). Somebody feel free to come along and correct me.
I’d be interested to know if there has been a person who, when told to “go screw yourself”, actually could. 
There probably are XX women who are insensitive to male hormones, but I’m not sure what effect that would have on a person. For one thing, they would produce much more estrogen than an XY woman ever does, and would have complete female sexual organs. They may be able to reproduce and have no ill effects, and thus are unlikely to be discovered. They probably would have similar flawless skin, thick hair, etc. Not sure about body hair - but since they would menstruate they should be easy to distinguish from XY females. I’m guessing they wouldn’t have the unusual height, but I’m not sure.
There have been XY males insensitive to estrogen, at least two on record. I don’t recall the details, but both were unsually tall as well, and both developed osteoporosis in their 20’s - which indicates they are not likely to have a long life. Unfortunately, there is/was no way to treat their brittle bones.
OK, about that XY/XX sex determination thing…
Here’s how it works in people (avoiding technical terms and sticking to general concepts for simplicity): everyone, shortly after conception, develops two sets of ducts. One set has the potential to turn into male sex organs, the other into female sex organs. The signal that determines which set rules is testosterone. If this signal is not received the male ducts wither away and the fetus develops as female. If the signal is received, the female ducts disappear and the fetus develops as male.
That’s for the interal organs - the external ones start from the same nubbin of flesh, but again, the on/off switch is testosterone. If that nubbin receives testosterone the bits develop as male. If no signal is received, the bits develop as female.
Remember - the signal is testosterone, NOT the genes themselves!
So… if a fetus with XY genes has a defect that makes the cells unresponsive to testosterone those cells never receive the signal. Think of a radio - the station could be broadcasting as strong as ever, but if your receiver is broken you don’t hear anything. The body cells are “deaf” to testosterone and never get the message. No signal arrives… the male ducts disappear, and the external genitals (who also never get the signal) progress to female appearance. (The female innards, which require two intact X chromosomes, do not develop - this is why women with Turner’s syndrome, who have only one X, also do not develop ovaries or uterus).
To answer another question - yes, XY women DO have a real vagina, and presumably it would feel the same as any other vagina to a sexual partner. There’s no cervix, but I don’t think most people would notice that unless they were looking for that in particular.
And no, an XY woman would NOT identify as male. After all, they look less masculine than a normal female. And if the theory that prenatal sex hormones determine gender identity and/or orientation is true, then these women are the least likely to either “identify as male” or to be lesbians – because the hormones that would trigger “find women sexually attractive” or “identify as male” would have no effect on them and they would “default” to the female program. They really are more feminine than normal women. Which is not to say they’re sitting at tea surrounded by lace doillies - at least one has competed in the Olympics (female category, of course) and I’m sure they pursue all professions, not just traditionally feminine ones.
This prenatal development program also explains other instances of gender strangeness – partial androgen insensitivity, for instance, can result in a confusing signal to the body, resulting in someone whose genitals aren’t fully one thing or another. Prenatal exposure to male hormones can result in a baby with a uterus and ovaries internally but the external genitals can look like a penis and scrotum with undescended testes. There is a condition where at birth the external genitals appear female (more or less - there is some ambiguity) but at puberty the child develops male features like a beard and the “clitoris” grows into a penis - and such people, despite being raised as a girl, almost always identify as male as an adult and are fully capable of fathering children. There are a few, rare individuals who have both uterus, ovaries, AND testes - one of the medical journals, JAMA if I recall, recently published a picture of such a child. There is at least one instance of a person who developed NO gentials and is thus completely asexual.
As for XY females being able to marry or not - it depends on the locality, and how the laws define male and female. Most places probably go by appearance, or what’s on the person’s birth certificate. If I recall correctly, though, in Texas this is actually based on chromosomes - so in Texas a person with XY chromosomes is only legally allowed to marry a person with XX chromosomes… so an XY woman would NOT be able to marry an XY man in Texas, only another woman. Meaning they would be compelled to enter into a homosexual marriage, or none. (There is a certain irony there…) But to the best of my knowledge they don’t do chromosome typing prior to marriage in that state.