# Are Aaron and Erin homophonic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 3, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813 "2002-09-03T15:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/81 "2011-02-24T15:28:38Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Do you people live in fish bowls? > > Seriously, I’ve heard these words (Mary, merry, marry) used numerous times on television over the years, with the distinct pronuciations you claim to find impossible to fathom. Do you not hear the difference when those who do speak these words? Or is it that you cannot bring yourself to use those pronunciations? > > … > > It seems that our midwestern countrymen cannot distinguish between eh and ah. > They are different. But this is as pointless as trying to explain the l-r difference to a Japanese person. If you grew up with this - without willful listening, you won’t get it.) It’s not willful and it’s not just people being obstreperous. Phoneme development takes place at an early age. Much of language development in infancy is learning _not_ to distinguish sounds that are not distinguished by the people around you. If you haven’t learned to distinguish two phonemes at a very early age, it’s very unlikely that anyone will be able to teach you to hear the difference once you’re grown. People aren’t doing it to annoy you. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/82 "2011-02-24T15:33:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Mary, marry, and merry are homophones to me and I’ve never understood how anyone could even attempt to pronounce them differently. > > … > > And baron and heron absolutely rhyme and I still can’t figure out what the difference is even theoretically. Well, can you theoretically distinguish the vowels in _Kate_, _cat_, and _kept_? For me, that’s the Mary/marry/merry distinction. In my speech, baron has the _cat_ vowel and heron has the _pet_ vowel. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/83 "2011-02-24T16:04:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Mary, marry, and merry are homophones to me and I’ve never understood how anyone could even attempt to pronounce them differently … **And baron and heron absolutely rhyme and I still can’t figure out what the difference is even theoretically**. In my SE Louisiana dialect, in which the Mary/marry/merry is incomplete (only the latter two rhyme) and the caught/cot merger has not taken place. I pronounce “baron” and “heron” so that they do not rhyme. In person, it would be a cinch to explain this, and even to teach you to make the same exact distinction. Over the Internet, I will have to resort to a small bit of phonetic trickery to make the point. Herewith: - the “a” in my “baron” is EXACTLY the same as your “a” in “bat” - the “e” in my “heron” is EXACTLY the same as your “e” in “bet” Now then. With that explanation, I’m gambling a little that you pronounce “bat” and “bet” the way an overwhelming percentage of Americans do. I think there are a few American dialects that merge “bet” and “bit” … but I believe the so-called “short a” of “bat” holds up from sea to shining sea. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/84 "2011-02-24T16:14:35Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Maybe all the water in those parts dissolved the distinctions between the 3 phonemes /æ/, /e/, /ɛ/. **All are collapsed into just /ɛ/ before /r/. We are very rhotic up there too**. It’s really the affect of the medial “r” in these words that seems to cause all the trouble 😃 If Midwestern American speakers take “Aaron/Erin/baron/heron” and re-imagine them as nonce words with different medial consonants, they can derive how other speakers distinguish these words. But to use real-word examples, from my dialect: “Aaron” is to “Erin” _as_ “packer” is to “pecker” “baron” is to “heron” _as_ “Massey” is to “messy” ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/85 "2011-02-24T16:39:02Z")
My wife knows two people, Aaron and Erin. Among our social set, the names are unfailingly pronounced “Boy Aaron” and “Girl Erin.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/86 "2011-02-24T16:41:08Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Do you people live in fish bowls? > > Seriously, I’ve heard these words (Mary, merry, marry) used numerous times on television over the years, with the distinct pronuciations you claim to find impossible to fathom. Do you not hear the difference when those who do speak these words? Or is it that you cannot bring yourself to use those pronunciations? > > My daughter and nephew have the aforementioned names; the nephew’s family moved to Tennessee, and when we visit we go through this nonsense everytime. > My pronunciations: > > Mary (mair-ee) > merry (meh-ree) > marry (mah-ree) > [@acsenray](#): > > Well, can you theoretically distinguish the vowels in _Kate_, _cat_, and _kept_? For me, that’s the Mary/marry/merry distinction. The vast majority of people in the various media pronounce Mary, merry, and marry as homophones. There may be a few who do not. It is simply not the case that ordinary pronunciation of the words are (mair-ee), (meh-ree). and (mah-ree). That would cause uncontrollable giggling across the great American heartland. Only someone who lives in a fishbowl would think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/87 "2011-02-24T16:53:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The vast majority of people in the various media pronounce Mary, merry, and marry as homophones. There may be a few who do not. It is simply not the case that ordinary pronunciation of the words are (mair-ee), (meh-ree). and (mah-ree). That would cause uncontrollable giggling across the great American heartland. Only someone who lives in a fishbowl would think otherwise. I don’t know why you’ve lumped me with Mr. Fish Bowl, because I agree with you. I was just trying to address your theoretical understanding of a possible distinction. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/88 "2011-02-24T17:10:07Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The vast majority of people in the various media pronounce Mary, merry, and marry as homophones. Anecdotally: I don’t think this is quite true – I perceive that “Mary” and “merry” get merged in Newscaster Speech, but that “marry” gets distinguished from the other two. Folks from many linguistic backgrounds speak on-air idiolects that all approach “perfect Newscaster Speech”, but I’d think it would be common for aspects of these speakers’ native dialects to slip in. I concede that my own pronunciations are probably affecting what I’m perceiving. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/89 "2011-02-24T17:14:21Z")
> [@Richard](#): > > I’m from Missouri, and my son (raised in Ohio) constantly teases me about my pronunciation of vowels before “r”. “Cord” sounds exactly like “card”, and “fork” comes out as “fark”. I’ve lived in Ohio for a long time, and I have learned to hear, and usually pronounce, the difference, but sometimes I fall back to my Missouri accent (and prepare for my son’s teasing). But I still don’t hear or pronounce any difference in Aaron, Erin, baron, and heron. > > Off-topic: This is my second attempt to post this. Usually when I open the message board, it automatically logs me on. (I have cookies enabled.) But sometimes it doesn’t. This time, I noticed that it didn’t have my user id in the proper place, so I entered by id and password, but then it came back and said I was not properly logged on, and it lost my reply, so I had to do it again. Anybody have any idea why it logs me on automatically sometimes, and not other times? My mom, from Iowa, has always ‘warshed’ the clothes when doing laundry- and to me, heron, Erin, Aaron, and baron all sound the same. Is it like ah-ron as opposed to erin? “Erin” from Erin go Bragh would be how I would rhyme them all… ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/90 "2011-02-24T17:16:54Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > In my SE Louisiana dialect, in which the Mary/marry/merry is incomplete (only the latter two rhyme) and the caught/cot merger has not taken place. The above is an error I caught too late for the edit window. It should be: **… in which the marry/Mary/merry merger is incomplete (only the latter two rhyme) …** ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/91 "2011-02-24T17:18:53Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Is it like ah-ron as opposed to erin? “Erin” from Erin go Bragh would be how I would rhyme them all… Not like that – see my post #83 for an explanation of how “Aaron/Erin” are distinguished by the Americans who do. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/92 "2011-02-24T17:24:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not willful and it’s not just people being obstreperous. Phoneme development takes place at an early age. Much of language development in infancy is learning _not_ to distinguish sounds that are not distinguished by the people around you. > > If you haven’t learned to distinguish two phonemes at a very early age, it’s very unlikely that anyone will be able to teach you to hear the difference once you’re grown. People aren’t doing it to annoy you. You misread my post. I was not annoyed. It was sounding as if some people never heard anyone pronouncing the three words differently. I have difficulty believing this. I believe people are raised to not make the different vowel sounds; but that is light years from “I don’t hear the difference”. If “not hearing the difference” is the case, then I’m truly amazed; I can’t fathom any phonemes that I can’t distinguish. Maybe I can’t pronounce them, but certainly I could hear the difference. You’re hinting that some people have an aural version of color blindness. Update: further posts indicate that the merry/marry/Mary mergers can indeed hear the difference when spoken by easterners, but they do not say it that way themselves. This I can understand. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/93 "2011-02-24T17:37:05Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If you haven’t learned to distinguish two phonemes at a very early age, **it’s very unlikely that anyone will be able to teach you to hear the difference once you’re grown**. I disagree – adults can indeed learn to distinguish _by ear_ phonemes that are not native to their dialects. There is a learning curve, yes, but it’s not particularly steep. Now then … accurately producing these unfamiliar phonemes in fluent, conversational speech is a whole 'nother ball of wax. However, even this difficulty can be largely overcome–Hollywood voice coaches make their living guiding their students to do exactly that. And while the results aren’t usually 100% on the nose, it’s normally close enough. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/94 "2011-02-24T17:37:25Z")
> [@Shadowfyre](#): > > Chicagoan here. Maybe it’s because we like to draw our a’s out in Chicahhhhgo, but Arron and Erin are not homophones to me. > > At least I don’t pronounce them the same. Like a bunch of you up thread, it is Air-on and Err-in. To me, it feels different in my mouth. Whether it sounds different to a listener, I don’t know. Same here, Cleveland area. As someone upthread said, If I were to say “I know Aaron and Erin,” you would be able to tell the difference. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/95 "2011-02-24T17:39:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Not like that – see my post #83 for an explanation of how “Aaron/Erin” are distinguished by the Americans who do. Sitting here talking to my computer is allowing for such a minor distinction in pronunciation that I wouldn’t notice it in normal conversation. Plus it is hard to figure out how baron can have a “b’a’t” sound… That to me _would_ be the bah-ron and ah-ron I referred to… And I have known many an Err-in spelled Erin (dated a Scottish girl and asked her why she was named after Ireland, actually) if female and Aaron or Aron if male, but never an Ah-ron or Air-ron… ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/96 "2011-02-24T17:44:24Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > It was sounding as if some people never heard anyone pronouncing the three words differently. I have difficulty believing this. I believe people are raised to not make the different vowel sounds; but that is light years from “I don’t hear the difference”. If “not hearing the difference” is the case, then I’m truly amazed; I can’t fathom any phonemes that I can’t distinguish. Maybe I can’t pronounce them, but certainly I could hear the difference. > > You’re hinting that some people have an aural version of color blindness. Most people have to be taught to _perceive_ the difference. But even if a phonetics student doesn’t perceive the differences at first, the teacher can introduce fundamentals that will help the student get there from here. Some people are kind of like phonetic prodigies, and all this stuff comes more or less naturally to them. They are kind of like human tape recorders … in casual speech they will use their native dialect, but they are also uncannily skilled at adopting other dialects if it suits them. I would bet Gary Oldman and Hugh Laurie are like that. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/97 "2011-02-24T17:52:23Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Plus it is hard to figure out how baron can have a “b’a’t” sound … Oh, but it can. 😃 If it helps, try pronouncing the “r” as the onset of the second syllable. Do your best to wrest the “r” away from the “a” that precedes it. Take your own pronunciation of “bat”. Can you lop off the “t” and extend the “short a” sound? Can you say “baaaaaaaaaaaaaa” with that same “short a” in “bat” stretched out long? If you can say that, you can work towards something like “baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa … (pause) … run”. After that, you work on pronouncing the same utterance with the pause reduced, and then with the pause eliminated. Finally, you’d work on shortening the “aaaaaaa”. > [@](#): > > That to me _would_ be the bah-ron and ah-ron I referred to… Quasi-phonetic spellings are admittedly tricky. The spelling “ah” makes me think of the so-called “short o” of “cod”, “rock”, etc. That particular vowel is not relevant to this immediate discussion, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/98 "2011-02-24T17:55:20Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > You misread my post. I was not annoyed. It was sounding as if some people never heard anyone pronouncing the three words differently. I have difficulty believing this. I believe people are raised to not make the different vowel sounds; but that is light years from “I don’t hear the difference”. If “not hearing the difference” is the case, then I’m truly amazed; I can’t fathom any phonemes that I can’t distinguish. Maybe I can’t pronounce them, but certainly I could hear the difference. > > You’re hinting that some people have an aural version of color blindness. I very much doubt that there are _no_ phonemes that you fail to hear. But, maybe you’re just really skilled in that area. For the vast majority of people, there are a lot of phonemes that they can’t distinguish by ear, and, despite what **Bordelond** says, I believe the majority of people are extremely resistant to being taught to distinguish them. For example, most Americans I talk to can’t hear the difference between some combination of [a], [ä], [ɑ], [ɒ], and [ɔ], sometimes all of them. One of my friends can’t hear the difference between the low vowels and [ʌ] (making homophones of _golf_ and _gulf_). Almost all English speakers have trouble distinguishing by ear the non-aspirated and aspirated consonants in Indian languages – k/kʰ, g/ɡʱ, tɕ/tɕʰ, dʑ/dʑʱ, ʈ/ʈʰ, ɖ/ɖʱ, t̪/t̪ʰ, d̪/d̪ʱ p/pʰ, b/bʱ – as well as the dental and retroflex plosives – ʈ/t̪, ʈʰ/t̪ʰ, ɖ/d̪, ɖʱ/d̪ʱ. No American news reader, no one, pronounces “Beijing” correctly or distinguishes any of the Chinese sibilants and affricates (which is one of the reasons I think we should have just stuck to Peking). ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/99 "2011-02-24T18:03:20Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I very much doubt that there are _no_ phonemes that you fail to hear. But, maybe you’re just really skilled in that area. For the vast majority of people, there are a lot of phonemes that they can’t distinguish by ear, and, despite what **Bordelond** says, I believe the majority of people are extremely resistant to being taught to distinguish them. > > For example, most Americans I talk to can’t hear the difference between some combination of [a], [ä], [ɑ], [ɒ], and [ɔ], sometimes all of them. One of my friends can’t hear the difference between the low vowels and [ʌ] (making homophones of _golf_ and _gulf_). > > Almost all English speakers have trouble distinguishing by ear the non-aspirated and aspirated consonants in Indian languages – k/kʰ, g/ɡʱ, tɕ/tɕʰ, dʑ/dʑʱ, ʈ/ʈʰ, ɖ/ɖʱ, t̪/t̪ʰ, d̪/d̪ʱ p/pʰ, b/bʱ – as well as the dental and retroflex plosives – ʈ/t̪, ʈʰ/t̪ʰ, ɖ/d̪, ɖʱ/d̪ʱ. > > No American news reader, no one, pronounces “Beijing” correctly or distinguishes any of the Chinese sibilants and affricates (which is one of the reasons I think we should have just stuck to Peking). My gf tells me that half the time I get them right, and half the time I don’t- and I can’t hear the difference all the time (but am learning to) between the double letter transliteration and the back of the throat h’s… ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813/100 "2011-02-24T18:11:01Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I very much doubt that there are _no_ phonemes that you fail to hear. But, maybe you’re just really skilled in that area. For the vast majority of people, there are a lot of phonemes that they can’t distinguish by ear, and, despite what **Bordelond** says, I believe the majority of people are extremely resistant to being taught to distinguish them. > > For example, most Americans I talk to can’t hear the difference between some combination of [a], [ä], [ɑ], [ɒ], and [ɔ], sometimes all of them. One of my friends can’t hear the difference between the low vowels and [ʌ] (making homophones of _golf_ and _gulf_). > > Almost all English speakers have trouble distinguishing by ear the non-aspirated and aspirated consonants in Indian languages – k/kʰ, g/ɡʱ, tɕ/tɕʰ, dʑ/dʑʱ, ʈ/ʈʰ, ɖ/ɖʱ, t̪/t̪ʰ, d̪/d̪ʱ p/pʰ, b/bʱ – as well as the dental and retroflex plosives – ʈ/t̪, ʈʰ/t̪ʰ, ɖ/d̪, ɖʱ/d̪ʱ. > > No American news reader, no one, pronounces “Beijing” correctly or distinguishes any of the Chinese sibilants and affricates (which is one of the reasons I think we should have just stuck to Peking). Now you’re making me go back to my fishbowl comment. Those are foreign phonemes you’ve indicated. Still they can be learned. But the distinctions of Mary/merry/marry are heard over and over on television and in movies. For an American to claim nonexposure to these phonemes and then claim one cannot distinguish them is disingenuous, unless one lives in a fishbowl. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aaron-and-erin-homophonic/126813.md?page=6)