# Are accusations of raicsm/sexism/bigotry abused? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2018, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332 "2018-09-14T12:26:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/81 "2018-09-20T16:39:25Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m not going to say “abused”, or even “used when factually wrong”, but I’ll say “used when tactically a bad idea”. > > Pretend this is 1860. You could accuse Abraham Lincoln of having deplorably racist attitudes. You would not be factually in error to do so — if I recall correctly, he did not believe “the Negro” to be an equal in every way to “White”. Lincoln had racist attitudes that were not seen as racist back then due to the racism of the time. Calling Lincoln’s attitudes racist doesn’t diminish or dismiss his achievements. > [@](#): > > As _Avenue Q_’s song says, everyone is a little bit racist; and many activists say that every white person is a participant in racism, that every male is a participant in patriarchal oppression, and so on. They aren’t factually wrong but tactically it’s more useful (in my opinion) to reserve the terms “racist” and “sexist” for attitudes, intentions, and behaviors — things that a male or white (or etc) individual can modify or ameliorate — and not to use those terms to refer to the fact of institutional racism and patriarchy and the fact that as individuals we are woven into those systems as participants and structures as beneficiaries of it whether we like it or not. What term do you propose to use in place of “institutional racism”? > [@](#): > > “Racist” and “sexist” and so on _should be a horrible thing to be called_, something reprehensible, shameful. The terms can’t really work that way socially if people are told that they are racists or sexists because they are white or male. Respectfully, you have it backward. _Racist_ is already perceived as such a horrible insult that it’s nearly impossible to have frank conversations about its subtle and pervasive forms, and the bar for what constitutes racism has been set ridiculously high. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/82 "2018-09-20T17:37:31Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Respectfully, you have it backward. _Racist_ is already perceived as such a horrible insult that it’s nearly impossible to have frank conversations about its subtle and pervasive forms, and the bar for what constitutes racism has been set ridiculously high. Well, it’s certainly meant to be a horrible insult, but I disagree about the height of the bar. “You’re white and male and part of the system therefore you are racist whether you think so or not” isn’t a particularly high bar IMO. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/83 "2018-09-20T18:41:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “You’re white and male and part of the system therefore you are racist whether you think so or not” isn’t a particularly high bar IMO. Thankfully, the bar is much higher. Unfortunately, there are still lots of people who still say or do racist things (like, say, characterizing some black people as the n-word based on their behavior). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/84 "2018-09-20T19:00:30Z")
I disagree. I don’t think “racist” and “sexist” are horrible things to be called. I mean, it sucks that we have a world in which racism and sexism are so ingrained into our culture, but given their ubiquity, if someone calls you out for doing something racist or sexist, instead of treating it like they just accused you of being a serial puppy rapist, just frickin pay attention to what they’re talking about. Maybe they have a point, and you need to adjust behavior; maybe they don’t. Either way isn’t the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/85 "2018-09-21T11:04:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t consider that sort of personal attack to be appropriate, FWIW. Given your manner of posting in these threads, what you consider to be appropriate is worth very little in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/86 "2018-09-21T12:00:13Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Humans can pretty much abuse almost anything, but that doesn’t negate the legitimacy of the problem itself. Noone is saying that racism/sexism/bigotry doesn’t exist. That’s not the debate. > [@](#): > > That is, in fact, one of the favorite tactics of naysayers. For example, enemies of the “Black Lives Matter” movement will triumphantly point out a false claim of police abuse as if that negates the fact that Blacks have been the victims of police abuse throughout the history of this nation. As a critic of BLM (or what it had become at one point), I point out the scientific study conducted by a prize winning economist that shows that cops do not shoot blacks more frequently than whites after you take reasonable variables into account. I point out that blacks get shot about 3 times more frequently than whites and that the poverty rate is about three times higher in the black community than the white community. In fact its not the critics of BLM that are using anecdotal evidence, it is in fact BLM that is doing so. The entire critical race theory movement uses anecdote and narrative rather than data and analysis. Anecdote and narrative can be useful in some things. It can prove that cops do in fact seem to get cleared for shootings that almost any civilian would go to jail for but they have not proven that the justice system is more lenient towards cops that kill white men versus cops that kill black men. That would require logic, analysis and data. Anecdote can also prove that BLM has instigated riots. You only need to instigate one riot to be a violent organization. Just like you only need to beat your wife once to be a wifebeater. Anecdote is sufficient in that case. no study needs to be conducted to see if BLM is violent or that someone is a wifebeater, one data point is all you need. > [@](#): > > Sure, there are women who will make false claims to garner media attention or extort money, but that doesn’t change the fact that sexual harassment has been prevalent in all facets of our society. The questions isn’t whether there are false claims of sexism (not sexual harassment), the question is whether accusations of sexism are being abused. It6 loses its stigma. People sprain their eyes rolling them at people accusing others of sexism when they criticize Hillary. This turns into people rolling their eyes (somewhat less) when people call out mild forms of sexism that COULD be overlooked (but probably shouldn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/87 "2018-09-21T12:03:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So, when \*\*dalej42 \*\*said: > > he really meant all young men who criticized Hillary? He didn’t mean actual supporters of Bernie? Let me revise my statement because this is going to get into a tedious discussion about whether an absolute statement is correct. Young liberal men that criticized Hillary were derisively called Bernie bros. This occurred frequently enough that you can say it was a common practice. It was basically accusing young liberal men of being sexist in large part to dismiss them and shut them up. Turns out they could still vote. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/88 "2018-09-21T12:08:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree. I don’t think “racist” and “sexist” are horrible things to be called. I mean, it sucks that we have a world in which racism and sexism are so ingrained into our culture, but given their ubiquity, if someone calls you out for doing something racist or sexist, instead of treating it like they just accused you of being a serial puppy rapist, just frickin pay attention to what they’re talking about. Maybe they have a point, and you need to adjust behavior; maybe they don’t. Either way isn’t the end of the world. Or they will just shut up and vote for the other guy come election day. Its not effective to tell other people how to react to your insults. You can certainly talk to them about why you think their statements or behavior is racist but simply calling them a racist (in many cases simply for disagreeing with the PC version of the facts) and dismissing them is extremely ineffective in a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/89 "2018-09-21T12:33:33Z")
With regards to BLM, **Damuri Ajashi** , I’ve referenced statistics that dispute your 3x number – specifically, the Pro Publica report (linked multiple times – I can find it again if someone needs it) that found that young black men were 21 times more likely to be shot by police than young white men, though the criminal differences were far, far smaller, and you ignored it. So it’s not a question of data vs anecdotes – it’s different data and different understandings of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/90 "2018-09-21T13:27:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thankfully, the bar is much higher. Unfortunately, there are still lots of people who still say or do racist things (like, say, characterizing some black people as the n-word based on their behavior). I’ve heard people claim they weren’t going to engage with those that they think said something like that, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out to be true. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree. I don’t think “racist” and “sexist” are horrible things to be called. I mean, it sucks that we have a world in which racism and sexism are so ingrained into our culture, but given their ubiquity, if someone calls you out for doing something racist or sexist, instead of treating it like they just accused you of being a serial puppy rapist, just frickin pay attention to what they’re talking about. Maybe they have a point, and you need to adjust behavior; maybe they don’t. Either way isn’t the end of the world. The specific instance that I mentioned was the “you didn’t do anything racist, but you are part of the system/white privilege/whiteness/white supremacism”. Calling that “racist” is counter-productive, mostly because they don’t IMO have a point. Collective guilt != burning crosses, IOW. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/91 "2018-09-21T13:33:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Let me revise my statement because this is going to get into a tedious discussion about whether an absolute statement is correct. This is not “tedious discussion about whether an absolute statement is correct”. This is “asking for some evidence for a questionable assertion”. > [@](#): > > Young liberal men that criticized Hillary were derisively called Bernie bros. This occurred frequently enough that you can say it was a common practice. So you keep asserting. Still waiting for the evidence. Yes, people were called Bernie Bros derisively… but thus far all those people we have seen discussed were actually Sanders supporters. That they also criticized Clinton remains correlation, not remotely causation. > [@](#): > > It was basically accusing young liberal men of being sexist in large part to dismiss them and shut them up. An even more questionable and evidence-free assertion. Of course, one could also argue that accusing anyone daring to challenge broad and baseless criticism of Clinton as doing so to “dismiss them and shut them up” is itself a ploy to dismiss them and shut them up. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/92 "2018-09-21T13:46:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’ve heard people claim they weren’t going to engage with those that they think said something like that, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out to be true. D’ohh! Thanks for reminding me. I’m still hopeful that this individual might change. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/93 "2018-09-21T15:25:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Young liberal men that criticized Hillary were derisively called Bernie bros. This occurred frequently enough that you can say it was a common practice. > [@Gyrate](#): > > So you keep asserting. Still waiting for the evidence Yes, this. I’m also waiting for some evidence. Showing that people called supporters of Bernie “Bernie Bros” is not evidence that young white men who criticized Hillary were called “Bernie Bros” ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/94 "2018-09-21T17:41:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes, this. I’m also waiting for some evidence. Showing that people called supporters of Bernie “Bernie Bros” is not evidence that young white men who criticized Hillary were called “Bernie Bros” I’m hoping this is sarcasm, but these days its impossible to tell. You’re either directly parodying the guy, in which case kudos, or you’re mirroring him and in which case :smack: Also, you invented the “white men” thing whole cloth, the original claim had nothing to do with race. Shifting the goalposts is natural, but when you try to shift that far I’ll call you out on it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/95 "2018-09-21T17:46:50Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Also, you invented the “white men” thing whole cloth, the original claim had nothing to do with race. Shifting the goalposts is natural, but when you try to shift that far I’ll call you out on it. My fault, I didn’t add “white” into it to move goal posts. Just a posting mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/96 "2018-09-21T18:09:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Or they will just shut up and vote for the other guy come election day. > > Its not effective to tell other people how to react to your insults. > > You can certainly talk to them about why you think their statements or behavior is racist but simply calling them a racist (in many cases simply for disagreeing with the PC version of the facts) and dismissing them is extremely ineffective in a democracy. > [@Shodan](#): > > The specific instance that I mentioned was the “you didn’t do anything racist, but you are part of the system/white privilege/whiteness/white supremacism”. Calling that “racist” is counter-productive, mostly because they don’t IMO have a point. Collective guilt != burning crosses, IOW. These posts bring up an important point. It involves asking what the ultimate goals are of those who bandy about such terms and phrases as “if you are white you are racist” or “white fragility” or for the sake of this discussion, even “white privilege”. Ostensibly, the goal is to spread awareness of widespread, systematic and institutional racism, from which every single white American derives some level of benefit. So if the goal is to raise awareness which leads to personal introspection and ultimately, hopefully, long-term change, it seems to me these rhetorical devices are an extremely ineffecient, even self-sabotaging means to achieving those goals. This is because the people most in need of enlightenment in re to these issues are not going to be receptive to a message that from the outset labels _them_ as a racist. Or even of having some sort of “privilege” not granted to minorities. The reality is, if you are genuinely interested in reaching those people who are most in the dark-and not just trying to shame them and thus elevate yourself, you need to approach and frame the issues in a decidely not-so-hostile, accusatory manner. I mean, how well has the current method been at affecting anything but closing minds? ETA: I want to be clear, I do not dispute the validity of the terms or phrases I mentioned. I meant that _in the context_ of spreading awareness and sparking introspection, they seem decidely wrong-headed. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/97 "2018-09-21T19:27:18Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I mean, how well has the current method been at affecting anything but closing minds? Compared to…? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/98 "2018-09-21T20:31:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Compared to…? Compared to what I’m suggesting should be employed instead; namely a less accusatory or divisive rhetorical strategy that doesn’t cut off the nose to spite the face. One that doesnt engender an immediate shutting down of minds, the very minds that are ostensibly trying to be reached and opened. We can discuss/debate what the particulars of that revised strategy could be, my point in the post you quoted was to say that the current one seems designed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/99 "2018-09-22T23:02:57Z")
You mean all the “shut-up-and-wait” stuff that didn’t work before? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332/100 "2018-09-23T17:03:57Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > What term do you propose to use in place of “institutional racism”? I don’t know. Feminism has “patriarchy” and also “sexism”, two different terms. I think it would be useful if there were a term that meant “institutional racism” as distinguished from personal attitudes and beliefs that are unequal and biased, but there sort of isn’t and I don’t have a good nominee that would improve on “institutional racism”. > [@](#): > > Respectfully, you have it backward. _Racist_ is already perceived as such a horrible insult that it’s nearly impossible to have frank conversations about its subtle and pervasive forms, and the bar for what constitutes racism has been set ridiculously high. Yeah, I guess so… I just read George Yancy’s _Backlash_ about the reactions to the “Dear White America” letter, and the responses were way over the top; I thought I was misremembering the letter and that it flung a lot of specific blame and accusation of the “institutional racism” variety, along with judgmental accusations of culpability etc, but it absolutely doesn’t. It would be hard to imagine a more reasonable letter, one that simply asks people to _look at_ the racist social structure. That’s really sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-accusations-of-raicsm-sexism-bigotry-abused/821332.md?page=6)