# Are Ale and Stout beer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2000, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781 "2000-12-22T00:03:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Upham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Upham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Upham)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/1 "2000-12-22T00:03:34Z")
Settle a bet. Scotch, Rye, Canadian and Irish are Whiskeys, are Ales, and beer? Upham ---
**Author:** ![Upham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Upham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Upham)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/2 "2000-12-22T00:05:15Z")
Sorry., that’s suposed to read “are ales and stouts beer” Gotta stop drinkin when i write these things cheers Upham ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/3 "2000-12-22T00:20:53Z")
yes ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/4 "2000-12-22T00:23:23Z")
Yes, if you are using the term “beer” in the generic sense that most people mean - fermented beverage brewed from grain. I suspect that somebody is arguing that beer = lager. Here’s somebody’s “tree” of “beer styles” with brief descriptions: [http://www.ambrew.com/homebrewing/style.htm](http://www.ambrew.com/homebrewing/style.htm) ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/5 "2000-12-22T00:24:05Z")
Not only that, but stouts are ales. ---
**Author:** ![Upham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Upham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Upham)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/6 "2000-12-22T00:28:56Z")
Thanks Yabob The arguement is also over just what “beer” is. What started it was some Honey Beer we were drinking (no grain inolved, i dont think there’s any hops, how is it beer??) Upham ---
**Author:** ![Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@Nanook\_of\_the\_North\_Shore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook_of_the_North_Shore)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/7 "2000-12-22T00:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Upham \* > \*\*Thanks Yabob > > The arguement is also over just what “beer” is. What started it was some Honey Beer we were drinking (no grain inolved, i dont think there’s any hops, how is it beer??) > Upham \*\* Fermented honey is called mead. ---
**Author:** ![Show\_Biz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@Show\_Biz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Show_Biz)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/8 "2000-12-22T00:30:57Z")
Canadian is Rye, but Rye is not necessarily Canadian. My favorite is Old Overholt. ---
**Author:** ![Upham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Upham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Upham)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/9 "2000-12-22T00:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nanook of the North Shore \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Upham \* > > \*\*Thanks Yabob > > > > The arguement is also over just what “beer” is. What started it was some Honey Beer we were drinking (no grain inolved, i dont think there’s any hops, how is it beer??) > > Upham \*\* > > Fermented honey is called mead. \*\* I’ve had Meade, but the label says Honey Beer. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/10 "2000-12-22T00:42:37Z")
I got a little help from [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/). Here’s the definitions of some terms you asked about and some terms you didn’t. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: beer > Pronunciation: 'bir > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English ber, from Old English bEor; akin to Old High German bior beer > Date: before 12th century > 1 : an alcoholic beverage usually made from malted cereal grain (as barley), flavored with hops, and brewed by slow fermentation > > Main Entry: ale > Pronunciation: 'A(&)l > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ealu; akin to Old Norse ol ale, Lithuanian alus > Date: before 12th century > 1 : an alcoholic beverage brewed especially by rapid fermentation from an infusion of malt with the addition of hops > > Main Entry: 2stout > Function: noun > Date: 1677 > 1 : a very dark full-bodied ale with a distinctive malty flavor > > Main Entry: la·ger > Pronunciation: 'lä-g&r > Function: noun > Etymology: German Lagerbier beer made for storage, from Lager storehouse + Bier beer > Date: circa 1853 > : a light beer brewed by slow fermentation and matured under refrigeration > > Main Entry: pil·sner > Variant(s): or pil·sen·er /'pils-n&r, 'pilz-, 'pil-z&-/ > Function: noun > Etymology: German, literally, of Pilsen (Plzen), city in the Czech Republic > Date: 1877 > 1 : a light beer with a strong flavor of hops > > Main Entry: 2porter > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English portour, from Middle French porteour, from Late Latin portator, from Latin portare to carry – more at FARE > Date: 14th century > 3 [short for porter’s beer] : a heavy dark brown beer brewed from browned or charred malt So I gather that ales and stouts are usually brewed using rapid fermentation. And beer (including largers, pilsners, and porters) are brewed using slow fermentation. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/11 "2000-12-22T01:18:25Z")
You have to be careful with dictionary definitions. The AHD simply says “A fermented alcoholic beverage brewed from malt and flavored with hops.”, which is a bit wide of the mark also, IMO. Most brewing sources will consider “lager”, “ale”, etc to be “beer styles”, ale and lager being the two major categories, distinguished by the type of yeast used. The major distinction of lager vs. ale yeasts is that ale yeasts are top-fermenting, whereas lager yeasts are bottom-fermenting. Ales are also usually brewed at a warmer temperature. “honey beer” and “mead” should be used to indicate two distinctly different things. As others have observed, if you just ferment honey you get mead, believed by some to be the world’s oldest alcoholic beverage. Honey beer usually indicates a beer that had honey added to it during the brewing process. mead is often called “honey wine” which is also a misnomer if fruit hasn’t been involved. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/12 "2000-12-22T02:32:07Z")
Using the definition of beer to be fermented grains, sake, normally considered a wine, is actually a beer. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/13 "2000-12-22T03:00:40Z")
Some sources DO claim sake to be a “rice beer” instead of a “rice wine”: [http://www.geocities.com/shamusan/sake.html](http://www.geocities.com/shamusan/sake.html) [http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.4/sake.html](http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.4/sake.html) Suffice it to say I think it’s stretching the definition of either, though I’d suggest it fits “beer” better. It’s made out of grain, not fruit, though it has neither malt nor hops in it, IIRC. Anyway, I’m going to be gone for a few days - I’m sure you guys will have this all sorted out when I get back. ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/14 "2000-12-22T03:17:53Z")
Well, yeah, I for one will be doing lots of research on the subject over the next few days… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/15 "2000-12-22T03:38:17Z")
So if wine must be made from fruit, what do you call a beverage of fermented flowers? “…Dandelion wine will make you remember \ The first days of Spring in the middle of December…” ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/16 "2000-12-22T04:21:33Z")
[nitpick] The other premise– > [@](#): > > Scotch, Rye, Canadian and Irish are Whiskeys is not correct. Scotch is “whisky” (more precisely, to the snobs–myself included in this case–there’s not really “Scotch,” just “whisky”), as are Japanese malts. Irish and, I believe, bourbon are “whiskey.” Not too sure about the Canadian. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/17 "2000-12-22T04:52:28Z")
From a legal standpoint, the difference lies in the alcohol content. Many ales and stouts are classified as malt liquors. Not wanting to be related to the U.S. malt liquors (cheap, potent, available in 40 oz bottles), they use a different identifier. From a functional standpoint, ales, stouts, lagers/pilsners, bitter, bock, double bock, malt liquors, lagers are all beer, brewed from recipes based on old techniques. There all are unique brewing recipe’s, and each style will make a unique flavor of beer. American (both continents) beers tend to be blander and more uniform, but go down better in warm climates. If it says Ale, or Stout on it but not beer it may have a higher than beer alcohol content. ---
**Author:** ![Emperor\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@Emperor\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emperor_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/18 "2000-12-22T07:48:38Z")
I’ve always prefered the term “Manna from heaven” myself 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![nowalls99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e68b1a/32.png) [@nowalls99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nowalls99)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/19 "2000-12-22T09:17:59Z")
I think Ben Franklin put it the best: “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” So lets drink all the ales and stouts and porters and lagers and whatever else you want to call beer, and be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2000, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-ale-and-stout-beer/46781/20 "2000-12-22T13:06:56Z")
Okay, I copped these quotes from [Michael Jackson’s Beer Companion](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762407727/qid=977489297/sr=1-1/102-6541089-3326500), no not **that** Michael Jackson. _“Wines begin with fruit (usually, but not always, grapes), while beers start with grain (customarily, but not necessarily, barley); both are made by fermentation and many of the flavour compounds naturally formed are shared between them. Distill wine and you have brandy. Distill beer and you make whiskey”._ With respect to ales, he has this to say: _“ale indicates a brew that has a warm fermentation, taditionally with strains of yeast that rise to the top of the vessel. These “top-fermenting” yeasts disinguish ales from lagers, where the yeasts work at cool temperatures, at the bottom of the vessel”._ He goes on to say that stout is an ale. There are many different kinds of stout such as dry stout, sweet stout, milk stout, porter, etc. If anyone has even a casual interest in beer, I highly recommend this book. It delves beer’s history, culture, brewing styles of various regions of the world, and even an index of recommended brewerys around the world and their addresses (Yay! My local micro-brewery is listed). Just don’t read it when you’re thirsty. Cheers, Hodge