# Are Aliens Visiting Earth? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 25, 2020, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949 "2020-06-25T10:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/142 "2021-05-01T17:38:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you were asked if we could fly a helicopter on Mars 30 years ago, I’m sure you could come up with a whole list of reasons why we couldn’t or wouldn’t. Don’t pull the [bumblebee argument](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bumblebee_argument) on me. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/143 "2021-05-01T17:39:58Z")
That can be one of the definitions. I have no idea how that contradicts what I said. We _do_ have a crude outline of the universe. There is far more to be learned about it than we currently know. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/144 "2021-05-01T17:40:33Z")
I did no such thing. Don’t pull a strawman argument on me. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/145 "2021-05-01T17:48:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I did no such thing. That is _exactly_ what you did. Name one thing about helecopter flight on Mars that violated the laws of physics as they were known 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/146 "2021-05-01T17:48:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have no idea how that contradicts what I said. That, I completely believe. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/147 "2021-05-01T17:50:23Z")
Name one thing about sending a probe to another star system that violates the laws of physics as they are known now. That’s what is going on here. Saying that it will be hard, that people won’t be able to overcome the engineering difficulties, that people won’t bother to do it. Nothing that violates physics. If anything it is _you_ that is engaging in the bumble bee argument here by claiming that these things that you are unable to imagine are actually impossible. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/148 "2021-05-01T17:51:49Z")
So you admit that it doesn’t then? Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/149 "2021-05-01T17:58:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So you admit that it doesn’t then? You make profoundly nonsensical arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/150 "2021-05-01T17:59:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Name one thing about sending a probe to another star system that violates the laws of physics as they are known now. Show one instance where I made that claim. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/151 "2021-05-01T18:15:29Z")
No, I don’t think that that is what the problem is here. One person said that our understanding of the universe was elementary. You said “Not bloody likely” and cited Asimov’s essay that concludes that our understanding of the universe is incomplete. You justified this by making up a definition of elementary meaning a simple crude outline, which _still_ doesn’t contradict anything that anyone has said. If you meant something other than disagreement with your statement “Not bloody likely”, then please explain what you actually meant. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Show one instance where I made that claim. You claimed that _I_ made that claim when you invoked that I was using the bumblebee argument. I simply turned the question back on you, to show how nonsensical it was for you to try to invoke it. So, sure, I will show an instance where you made a claim that sending a probe to another star system violated the laws of physics as soon as you show an instance of me claiming that helecopter (sic) flight on Mars violated the laws of physics as they were known 30 years ago. Remember, you claimed that is _exactly_ what I did. Do you retract that statement, or are you ready to cite where I made that claim? Anyway, the point that I made, and you ignored in favor of playing some sort of “gotcha” game, is if you asked someone 30 years ago if we would fly a helicopter on Mars, they would bring up all the engineering, technology, costs, and lack of desire that they see as insurmountable as reasons why we never would, why it is impossible. Which is exactly the same arguments made against interstellar probes and expansion. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/152 "2021-05-01T18:28:05Z")
Whatever, dude. Keep on pounding on whatever straw man exists in that world you have in your mind. Here’s the story so far: 1.) Poster says that our understanding of chemestry and physics is very limited. 2.) I point out that we make _extremely_ precise tools that depend on chenestry and physics to work like we think they work, _and they work_, so our understanding isn’t likely hugely wrong (from a practical, thing-building point of view, at least.) 3.) You jump in and say “Oh, yeah? Well _you_ probably think helicoptors can’t fly on Mars lol bbq!” 4.) I say that there is no fundamental physics that keep a helicopter from flying on Mars. 5.) You say “Checkmate!” like you outsmarted me on a point I was never arguing in any way in the first place. I neither said nor implied anything about the impossibility of long-term space probes. That argument you are applying to me comes _only_ from inside your own head. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/153 "2021-05-01T18:32:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Anyway, the point that I made, and you ignored in favor of playing some sort of “gotcha” game, is if you asked someone 30 years ago if we would fly a helicopter on Mars, they would bring up all the engineering, technology, costs, and lack of desire that they see as insurmountable as reasons why we never would, why it is impossible. Which is exactly the same arguments made against interstellar probes and expansion. _None of which arguments I have been making._ You are attacking me for something _some other poster said._ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/154 "2021-05-01T20:45:32Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Bear in mind that there are projects like Starshot considered feasible by many astrophysicists. If what they are doing is impossible, you must go tell them, share your wisdom. I think you’ve shifted the goalposts just a little there. We were talking about probes that would traverse the entire galaxy from a single point of origin. Starshot isn’t that. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum\_45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum_45/32/3385_2.png) [@eburacum\_45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum_45)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/155 "2021-05-01T21:03:17Z")
Why are we talking about probes that traverse the entire galaxy? Are we assuming that the closest alien civilisation is at the other end of the galaxy for some reason? Perhaps that is a reasonable assumption, given the absence of evidence for their existence. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/156 "2021-05-01T21:06:24Z")
No idea, but it’s right there in post #120 ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/157 "2021-05-01T21:36:29Z")
Firstly, what I said was that there could be a fleet of probes from a single origin, not one probe traversing the entire galaxy. There’s no reason that has to involve a single probe travelling more than 100k light years. Of course the simpler scenario is self-replicating probes, but that’s been discussed at length in parallel threads so I was just trying to avoid going into all that again. But secondly, so what if I were talking about one probe going millions of light years? You still haven’t shown anything that would make that impossible, just your own skepticism. And, so what? In this context, a really, really hard engineering problem is irrelevant, it needs to be shown to be impossible according to our understanding of physics, because we’re expecting a species millions of years ahead of us at this to be capable of solving really, really hard engineering problems. Since you just conceded that interstellar transport may well be likely with humble human tech (or at least: our best physicists cannot see a reason it is not possible), you’ve boxed yourself into the position of believing hopping to the next star may be possible but going further some…law of physics kicks in? Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/158 "2021-05-01T21:45:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Aliens stole my brain!” “Brain and brain, what is brain?” ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/159 "2021-05-01T21:53:54Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Here’s the story so far: 🙄 That’s a pretty poor and self serving summation. Every point you made was incorrect. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > _None of which arguments I have been making._ You are attacking me for something _some other poster said._ So you do agree that an advanced civilization potentially could and would expand out across the galaxy with probes, machines, and even colonies? If so, then you are making a very odd argument and undercutting that position. If not, then yes, I am arguing against the position that you hold. In either case, I don’t see what value you have to contribute to this conversation, so I think I’m done unless you choose to actually discuss the merits of the science and technology behind space exploration, and how that relates to the possibility of extrasolar intelligences contact with us. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/160 "2021-05-01T21:58:00Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > We were talking about probes that would traverse the entire galaxy from a single point of origin. Starshot isn’t that. Starshot is a first step. It would not be our last. > [@eburacum\_45](#): > > Why are we talking about probes that traverse the entire galaxy? Are we assuming that the closest alien civilisation is at the other end of the galaxy for some reason? Worst case scenario, or best case, depending on your perspective. > [@eburacum\_45](#): > > Perhaps that is a reasonable assumption, given the absence of evidence for their existence. If there are contemporary extrasolar intelligences, which I personally doubt, then it would be hard to explain why there are only a few, rather than hundreds of thousands or millions. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949/161 "2021-05-01T21:59:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But secondly, so what if I were talking about one probe going millions of light years? You still haven’t shown anything that would make that impossible, just your own skepticism. My position is that the long journey time and exposure to very harsh conditions will make it physically impossible to create a machine that will remain in working order long enough. > [@Mijin](#): > > Since you just conceded that interstellar transport may well be likely with humble human tech (or at least: our best physicists cannot see a reason it is not possible), you’ve boxed yourself into the position of believing hopping to the next star may be possible but going further some…law of physics kicks in? Starshot may, or may not be possible, but it doesn’t scale up to a journey across the galaxy - it requires huge resources and support at the launch end. Propelling a speck of silicon at Proxima Centauri from Earth doesn’t do anything to enable a hop from Proxima Centauri to the next star. > [@Mijin](#): > > Do tell. Please can you drop the attitude? I don’t enjoy it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-aliens-visiting-earth/912949.md?page=9)