# Are all African Americans really African? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 1, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825 "2006-07-01T01:19:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/201 "2006-07-07T19:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] I don’t have to, as my point is that “you are what you say you are” (within reasonable limitations, of course). We linked you to Sen Obama, who you would not define as an “African-American” but clearly does so self-identify. Thus, my position is that Sen. Obama is correct when _he_ identifies _himself_ as “African-American”, not that the great mass of recent African immigrants are doing so. But if they \*did \* choose to do so, that’d be fine with me. [/QUOTE] Nevertheless, the senator’s adopted ethnicity and his immediate ancestry are two distinct things. I’m puzzled by your refusal to find a cite for masses of non-American black immigrants calling themselves African-Americans. Surely if this were “correct”, surely if this was an actual grassroots phenomenon, there would be ample evidence of this on the internet. Shoot: look for second and third generation Haitians doing this. Knock yourself out. Good luck. This is the fourth time I am requesting this cite to anyone wishing to take up the challenge of proving _definitively_ I am wrong. I will throw in “bragging rights.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/202 "2006-07-07T20:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] Nevertheless, the senator’s adopted ethnicity and his immediate ancestry are two distinct things. I’m puzzled by your refusal to find a cite for masses of non-American black immigrants calling themselves African-Americans. Surely if this were “correct”, surely if this was an actual grassroots phenomenon, there would be ample evidence of this on the internet. Shoot: look for second and third generation Haitians doing this. Knock yourself out. Good luck. This is the fourth time I am requesting this cite to anyone wishing to take up the challenge of proving _definitively_ I am wrong. I will throw in “bragging rights.” [/QUOTE] Why should I? 😕 At no time have I _proposed_ that “masses of non-American black immigrants are calling themselves African-Americans”. I have simply said that if any one such _individual_ wishes to call \*himself \* an “African-American” I am fine with that. Ihave shown you one such individual, all I am saying is that as far as I am concerned the Senator is correct when he wants to call himself a African-American. If a recent immigrant from Haiti wants to call himself a “Haitian-American”- I am good with that, if he prefers “Black”- fine, if he likes “African-American”- fine also, or even “decline to state”. (Ok, if he tries “Innuit” there might be an issue, sure). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/203 "2006-07-07T20:10:36Z")
Do I like Jazz? Sure, I’m definitely innuit. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/204 "2006-07-07T20:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] (Ok, if he tries “Innuit” there might be an issue, sure). [/QUOTE] Why? Because that doesn’t fit at all with what you’ve been saying. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/205 "2006-07-07T20:32:15Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth, like, forever ago] … I was on the EEO committee for a Government agency for a couple of years. For all I knew “AA= Black”. For almost everything but American Indian, dudes were allowed to “self-identify”. In other words, if you _said_ you were black/AA/Asian/Hispanic/Latino/Mexican-American/White/Caucasian/whatever, we accepted it and went on. No one ever said “Well, you claim you were discriminated against because you were African-American- can you show evidence you are descended from Pre-Civil War American slaves?” :dubious: In fact, there was one dudette with lighter skin than mine, (but with a “'Fro”) who filed a claim, and no one said anything or asked any questions about her self-identification as “African-American”. [/quote] It was _assumed_ she was _black_, not African-American. Most government agencies don’t bother to distinguish the two – even the Census is slow to change and they’re supposed to deal with these immigrant populations. This is the danger of assumptions when you’re not actually required to provide documentation or proof of anything. You and I both know that when it comes to racial discrimination cases there’s not a lot of difference between black, biracial, Trini and African-American, but when you look at ethnicity, genelogy or ancestry, there’s a world of difference. This is the danger of conflating terms that are proper nouns. > [@](#): > > So, I’d be very interested if anyone here can find a USA legal discrimination case where some dude was asked to prove his eligibility for the group “African American” by showing that his ancestors were slaves. African-American is designation that can only be “proven” by ancestry. Black is not. Black is very, very, very broad. This girl is [black.](http://www.n24.de/php-bin/data/cgalerie/content/n24_boulevard_de_050224_hiltons-telefonnr/04.jpg) I mean, I raise my eyebrow and go, “whatever” but if growing up with Lionel Richie doesn’t make you at least culturally black, I don’t know what will do it. But can she legitimately claim to be _African-American?_ Hell, no. Okay, maybe if she’s crazy enough to marry Lil Jon… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/206 "2006-07-07T20:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Why? Because that doesn’t fit at all with what you’ve been saying. [/QUOTE] Certainly it does. “Innuit” has a specific legal descriptor, according to the Dept of the Interior and that Tribe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/207 "2006-07-07T20:39:07Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] It was _assumed_ she was _black_, not African-American. [/QUOTE] Umm, no, I was there, you were not. The form said “_African-American_”. We took her at her word, and ther was no thought to do otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/208 "2006-07-07T20:46:05Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Umm, no, I was there, you were not. The form said “_African-American_”. We took her at her word, and ther was no thought to do otherwise. [/QUOTE] DrDeth – did you even read _the very next sentence_ where I typed, “Most government agencies don’t bother to distinguish between the two.”? C’mon. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/209 "2006-07-07T21:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Really? What makes the term mean that and not what the dictionary says? Because parallel terms like “European-American” (to the extent that anyone uses it) and “Asian-American” (which _is_ in fairly common use) don’t mean anything of the sort. Also, I challenge you to find any uses of “African-American” to mean what you claim it does. Further, the general compound [Origin]-American is not used in any _other_ circumstances to refer only to people who hold dual citizenship. So tell me, **Clothahump** , why does African-American have a meaning so clearly at variance with the meaning of every analogous term? Why isn’t its actual meaning written into dictionaries? Why isn’t its actual meaning used in public discourse? One wonders if, instead of actually trying to address the question, you’re instead sharing ideologically-motivated lies. Certainly what you’ve claimed is untrue - as has already been amply demonstrated in this thread; whether you’re a liar or not depends on whether your claims come from some very fundamental confusion over the term or whether you’re _deliberately_ telling falsehoods. [/QUOTE] Nice try, **Excalibre**. My comment was based on the political correctness aspect of the term when ued to denote origin. I used to work with a black lady who made a comment that stuck with me. She hates to be called African-American. She pointed out that it is ravingly stupid to call her, and others like her, African-American when she’s got five generations of her family born and raised in the USA. If you have to refer to her color, call her black and let it go at that. I happen to agree with her. That would be like calling me a European-American because my great-manytimes-grandfather came over on the Mayflower. Or calling a person born in Jamaica an African-American because one ancestor, several generations before, came from Africa. It’s ridiculous. But it is politically correct, therefore it’s in the dictionary. Now, if we remove the political correctness and stupidity (sorry, redundancy there) from it, what we have left is a term that refers to citizenship. If the person was born in Africa, they are African. If they were born in America, they are American. The only way to correctly join the two is - as I said - when you are referring to someone with dual citizenship. That is the only usage that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/210 "2006-07-07T21:47:46Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Nice try, **Excalibre**. My comment was based on the political correctness aspect of the term when ued to denote origin. I used to work with a black lady who made a comment that stuck with me. She hates to be called African-American. She pointed out that it is ravingly stupid to call her, and others like her, African-American when she’s got five generations of her family born and raised in the USA. If you have to refer to her color, call her black and let it go at that. [/quote] So you met someone once who doesn’t like the term. Wow. I’m amazed. Incidentally, I’m not sure why you think that has even the faintest bearing on what the term actually means. It doesn’t. > [@](#): > > I happen to agree with her. That would be like calling me a European-American because my great-manytimes-grandfather came over on the Mayflower. Or calling a person born in Jamaica an African-American because one ancestor, several generations before, came from Africa. It’s ridiculous. But it is politically correct, therefore it’s in the dictionary. I see you don’t know anything about lexicography. You’re under the impression that this imagined politically-correct conspiracy is reaching its claws into the dictionary and forcing those poor folks at Webster’s to do their wicked bidding? Imagine it. “No, George! Don’t put the correct definition in! The Political Correctness Police will take you away! We never even found the bodies of the last people they took!” Then maybe Noah Webster’s ghost flies out of the ground and an epic battle ensues! Somebody wanna option this? Great ideas at work here, folks! But anyway . . . take a look in a dictionary. What politically incorrect words are in there? Mine has “cunt”, “kike”, “nigger”, “faggot”, “spic” and “wop”. And dozens of others, no doubt. Oh noes! Now that I’ve said something, the political correctness police are going to come and cut those words out of all of our dictionaries! At any rate, there goes your claim. > [@](#): > > Now, if we remove the political correctness and stupidity (sorry, redundancy there) from it, what we have left is a term that refers to citizenship. I’m sure you thought you were making some sort of point here, but you didn’t succeed at it. > [@](#): > > If the person was born in Africa, they are African. If they were born in America, they are American. The only way to correctly join the two is - as I said - when you are referring to someone with dual citizenship. That is the only usage that makes sense. Ahh! But that’s entirely untrue. Because, _as has already been explained_, compound words do not necessarily mean the same thing as either of their component parts. In fact, they rarely do. You’re resting your claims on the idea that they do, but you have put forth no argument to explain why you think that’s the case. And why, if “African-American” means the same thing as “African” and “American”, does “darkroom” not mean the same thing as “dark” and “room”? I turn off the lights at night, but it doesn’t mean I sleep in a darkroom. So, since this line of reasoning is clearly fallacious in every other circumstance, why does it uniquely work in this case, **Clothahump**? And as we’ve already discussed, the only rational way to decide on the meaning of a term - and this is the standard used in writing dictionaries, your paranoid fantasies aside - is to examine what people use the term to mean. Which is exactly why it makes no sense to conclude that the term “African-American” has anything to do with dual citizenship. Nor are any of the comparable terms. You might _want_ them to mean something other than what they actually do. But that doesn’t change anything. Sorry, **Clothahump** , I know it hurts, but the facts don’t support your beliefs. Saying the same things over and over when they’ve already been proven wrong doesn’t work. It just shows that your viewpoints are not based on any sort of rationality but rather on your own kneejerk preconceptions. Since all these things have been stated already, and since you haven’t successfully countered any of them, it’s obvious that you’re not even interested in the truth. Which makes your participation in a GQ thread rather inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/211 "2006-07-07T21:52:44Z")
**Clothahump.** You’re just making another argument for how “Literal meanings are the best and make the most sense!” If you’re calling her African-American while _actually_ referring to her color, you ARE being stupid and redundant. But that’s not how the term is supposed to be used. It would annoy me, too. (It has annoyed me.) All African-Americans are black. Not all blacks are African-American. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/212 "2006-07-07T22:04:31Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] **Clothahump.** You’re just making another argument for how “Literal meanings are the best and make the most sense!” [/quote] You’re giving him way too much credit here. As has been thoroughly demonstrated throughout the thread, there is no standard under which the “literal meaning” of the term in any way approaches what he describes. He’s making an argument for “All words mean what I say, no matter what.” That’s the closest you can come to formulating his argument as some sort of principle. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/213 "2006-07-07T22:11:07Z")
[QUOTE=Askia] African-American is designation that can only be “proven” by ancestry. Black is not. Black is very, very, very broad. This girl is [black.](http://www.n24.de/php-bin/data/cgalerie/content/n24_boulevard_de_050224_hiltons-telefonnr/04.jpg) I mean, I raise my eyebrow and go, “whatever” but if growing up with Lionel Richie doesn’t make you at least culturally black, I don’t know what will do it. But can she legitimately claim to be _African-American?_ Hell, no. Okay, maybe if she’s crazy enough to marry Lil Jon… [/QUOTE] Are you serious in saying that NR isn’t allowed into the club even if she wants to self-identify as A-A? I have no idea what her ancestry is, but I believe she’s at least part Black (isn’t she?), and many, many African-Americans could look like that picture with some time at the hair stylist and some tinted contact lenses (or maybe even without the contact lenses). Does blonde streaks, light skin, and green eyes automatically get you ejected form the club? Come on… You might was well kick out Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams while you’re at it. (Why am I always reminded of Dave Chapelle’s “racial draft” skit when this topic comes up. Hey, if you don’t want those ladies, we’ll take 'em anytime. Not Nicole, necessarily, but the other two for sure!!!) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/214 "2006-07-07T22:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Are you serious in saying that NR isn’t allowed into the club even if she wants to self-identify as A-A? I have no idea what her ancestry is, but I believe she’s at least part Black (isn’t she?), and many, many African-Americans could look like that picture with some time at the hair stylist and some tinted contact lenses (or maybe even without the contact lenses). Does blonde streaks, light skin, and green eyes automatically get you ejected form the club? Come on… You might was well kick out Halle Berry and Vanessa Williams while you’re at it. (Why am I always reminded of Dave Chapelle’s “racial draft” skit when this topic comes up. Hey, if you don’t want those ladies, we’ll take 'em anytime. Not Nicole, necessarily, but the other two for sure!!!) [/QUOTE] Nicole Ritchie was adopted. I’m not sure of her ancestry, but while it’s not inconceivable that she’s at least partially of Subsaharan African descent, I don’t know of any evidence that she is. The question of whether being adopted into an ethnicity makes you fully part of it isn’t necessarily a simple one. I’m not terribly hung up on genetics, but I’m not sure whether I’d agree that, say, a Chinese kid adopted into an Italian-American family counts as “Italian” without a caveat. Besides, why the hatin’ on Nicole? She’s reasonably cute, and in the few interviews I’ve heard with her, she’s actually remarkably intelligent and rather witty. She has always struck me as being rather a stark contrast to her pal Paris. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/215 "2006-07-07T22:31:01Z")
I can’t believe I even know this, but… she says she’s Black and that her biological mother is Black, although I think her dad is Latino. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/216 "2006-07-07T22:48:08Z")
One other thing, **Askia**. Don’t go trying to sluff Michael Jackson off on us. We saved those pictures of him when he was 10! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/217 "2006-07-07T23:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Are you serious in saying that NR isn’t allowed into the club even if she wants to self-identify as A-A? [/quote] I can’t stop her from self-identifying. I only agree with the likely consensus she’s not. Only by _extreme_ adherence to “the one drop rule” have I even brought her up as an example as someone _black._ She most certainly is not African-American. Unlike W.E.B. DuBois, Mariah Carey and Thurgood Marshall, who are basically some white-looking people, the fact that they have a lot to do with aspects of African-American culture helps them be perceived as being not just black, but distinctly African-American. Just as Haitian Jean Dominique, had he lived in the states, would be considered black. He just would not be thought of reasonably as African-American. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825/218 "2006-07-07T23:35:58Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I can’t believe I even know this, but… she says she’s Black and that her biological mother is Black, although I think her dad is Latino. [/QUOTE] I didn’t know that . . . I thought she looked conceivably black, before I learned she was adopted, but after I read that I assumed she was white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-african-americans-really-african/362825.md?page=10)