I’m not sure you can achieve this hope. You are, after all, using the term in a sense used by no one who is not advancing it as a denial of black historical identity (or mocking these people).
As has been repeating shown, there is no justification for this sense of the word. African American is a synecdoche, an extremely common effect in English. There is just no counterpart for using a hyperliteral reading of the underlying terms to supersede a common phrase. For one thing, English, as I have said elsewhere, has an overwhelming tendency to ignore the original meaning of words. For another, the tendency in English is always from the literal to the metaphorical, as in the “hot dog” example given earlier. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of examples of these, many so old and common that the original literal meanings have been completely forgotten except by scholars. Trying to advance your sense of the term African American is bad English.
And unsupported. When John Mace was challenged on Barack Obama he went out and got a cite for his position. Your posts have been citeless. There is no evidence you have tried to dig up any backing for your opinion. My belief is that there is none, but it’s your position and you need to put up the evidence for it.
So your posts argue for a pejorative sense of a term, a sense that is not supported either by theory or by practice. And yet you hope not to be offensive by doing so, even after being told repeatedly how wrong you are.
This is not a good position to be in or try to defend.
I think the very fact that this question is being raised (ie, who can call themselves A-A) supports what me and Askia are saying. If it is self-evident that all American black people are A-A, why would this be a subject of debate now? It’s clear that many African immigrants do not feel comfortable calling themselves A-A. I’ve witnessed this discomfort firsthand.
My point is that although the dictionary defines A-A as one thing–and a large percent of the (white) population see no point in distinguishing between the descendants of American slaves and recent black immigrants–it does not mean that it is reasonable, in practice, to use A-A in reference to all black Americans. Because it leads to confusion and resentment among the people being talked about.
How about this: The next time some poster decides to start a thread on the failings of African-American culture, I’ll be sure to pipe up about how industrious and educated my Nigerian, Jamaican, and Sudanese acquaintances are. I’m sure it won’t take long for someone to say that the OP wasn’t talking about those blacks, but the other kind. The ones who like hip hop and drink 40s and beat their baby momma’s, you know? The ones that Bill Cosby is always ranting about. I then, innocently, will ask why my Nigerian, etc. friends and neighbors should be exempted from consideration. Afterall, aren’t they just as A-A as the hiphopolicious kind? How can we talk about “A-A culture” when, rather mysteriously, all “A-As” are not treated the same?
Actually, going by the stats in that article more blacks (52%) prefer black or have no preference. Forty-eight percent may prefer A-A, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they find “black” offensive.
At the risk of upbraiding the NYT, it’s more like “most black Americans who are not recent immigrants prefer ‘African-American’ as a formal ethnic descriptor, especially when contrasted to black immigrant groups describing themselves as Somalis, Kenyans, Cuban-Americans, Afro-Caribbeans, etc., but will commonly use black as a racial descriptor any old time, and often as an informal ethnic descriptor as well, or worse, to express Black Nationalist Unity or Pan-Africanist pride, to the confusion of many well-meaning but extremely white people who are secretly terrified of saying the wrong thing and sometimes wish the whole “race” thing would just go away.” To which I want to say: “Chill. Have a Coke. It’s the fourth of July weekend. Time to enjoy our many freedoms. You want to bust some spades? Dominoes? You play Tonk?”
Yes, you can do that, but it won’t change the fact that “African-American” and “Black” are considered interchangeable in American English today (when talking about people in the US). You’ll just be pointing out one of the inherent problems with the standard defintion, but lots of standard definitions have problems.
Sure, there is one definition of “African-American” that includes only those Americans descended from American slaves, but that’s not the most commonly used definition. It may well be that that definition is the standard definition in AAVE, but that doesn’t make it the standard definition in other forms of American English.
You’re saying that most people make no distinction between A-A and black American, and I’d agree with that observation. But I think the reason most people would call a black expat “African-American” is not necessarily because that person is black, per se, but because they assume that that person is your average Joe Schmo descendant of American slaves or because they don’t know that person’s specific country of origin. Or they know it, but are too lazy (or foolish) to recognize it appropriately with language. Or they have the stupid habit of mistakening Africa for a country and calling it one’s nationality. :rolleyes:
I think this definition of A-A that you’re operating under will likely change as black immigrants become a more visible part of the population. Language evolves and I don’t think this current definition will be sustainable in a society were “A-As” are so diverse ethnically and culturally as to preclude any cohesive lumping together. There needs to be a term that is reserved only for the descendants of American slaves because most of the time when we are talking about American black people, that is the group that is being refered to. First and second generation Africans are not, and it would be disingenous to inject them into a conversation about African-American culture, as I hope you agree.
That’s obsolete thinking. Right now, because of black immigration, “black” can no longer be considered exclusively interchangeable with “African-American” and its foolish to ignore that that. The standard definition of African-American is fine, it’s expanding the term to include all these unintended groups so that it matches “Asian-American” and “European-American” is if they are equitable racial descriptors that’s the problem.
… But seeing as how black Americans do go through periodic nomenclature changes, I can see how in a few more years ‘African-American’ is dropped for something else. Nubians might be nice, and I surely hope we can do better than Niggas.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with that, although I doubt the definition is going to change anytime soon-- it’s not like we’re being flooded with African immigrants. As **Askia **noted, there are certain areas of the country where African immigrants are fairly common, but I’d be surprsied if they make up even 1% of the Black population in the US. Additionally, White and Black intermarriage rates are relatively low, so it’s more likely that an African immigrant is going to marry into the A-A culture, in which case the next generations become A-A by any defintion of the term. And if they don’t marry in to A-A culture, their kids probably will. Thus, you don’t get a steady accumulation of “real” Africans and their descendents.
But I do agree that it would be useful to have a term which refers to only the descendents of African slaves in the US. It’ll be tough, though, to create such a term and not have it morph into yet another synomym for “Black”.
I’m not inclined to research anything today, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the black immigrant population is around 5%-10% of the total black population, provided black Latinos and Afro-Caribbeans are counted in the racial category “black” instead of the ethnic category “Hispanic.”
Even if that’s true, that still only makes them about 1% of the total U.S. population, far too small a group to be noticeable among the whole.
The language and the terms used will change, but in unexpected directions and with odd sudden lurches. African American and black are interchangeable for any foreseeable future.
I’m sorry to belabor this point, but we already have a term. It’s called “African American”.
If this is too confusing, I really don’t see what’s wrong with either referring to people as “black” (if you feel compelled to talk about their race) or their nationality (like Nigerian or Haitian). Personally, I don’t use African American unless I’m talking about culture or heritage and I want to be a specific as possible. As in, “Hip hop sprung out of African-American urban culture”. Yes, one could say “black urban culture”, but “A-A urban culture” paints a more precise picture. But if I want to describe someone’s physical appearance, I would say, “He’s a black guy.” Not “He’s African American.” Just like if I wanted to describe a white person, I would say “She’s white.” Not, “She’s French/Scottish/German American”.
If someone says they prefer to be called AA, then by all means accomodate them. But please, folks, don’t act like someone is holding a gun to your head and demanding you use the term. Few people are that sensitive.
No, it’s not. Please go back and read this thread-- you don’t get to decide what the definition of a term is, and that term no longer means only that (if it ever did).
Those are all excellent points, but they do not answer the question: What does the term “African-American” mean?
You are answering this question: Should “African-American” be used to denote only descendents of American slaves? The answer to that question may indeed be “yes”, but that doesn’t tell us how the term is actually used. You might as well be arguing that the term “tennis shoes” can only be used to denote shoes that are used exclusively for the playing of tennis. That was probably true at one time, but it simply isn’t true anymore.
No one in this thread is claiming he is being coerced to use the term in any particular way. I’m simply reporting how the term is used. And I’ve provided ample cites to back that up.
John Mace. You’ve discussed what “African-American” should mean and how it’s used. Let us now discuss how often it is currently used is frequently an excellent example of how it’s misused.
The term is often misused by U.S. government agencies who don’t differentiate blacks except to note when they’re Latino; in some instances members of the larger American broadcast media call foreign-born blacks African-American; publishers of ephemera and some general-interest publications who do likewise; and some few African expatriates in America who co-opt the term in its most literal sense, as Barack Obama does, saying “I am African and I am American.” He has at least adopted the culture in addition to being black, which gives him a pass, but that’s not his heritage.
You’ve cited a couple examples of the above. Please cite where there’s a groundswell of African immigrants or black immigrants from elsewhere actually calling themselves African-Americans in defiance of tradition. I’d like to see it because I’ve never met them.
Oh, please, I’m talking linguistically among the general population. The same general population that calls the immigrants from dozens of different localities “Hispanic” without blinking an eye. The same general population that lumps all Asians together. The same general population that can’t even figure out that some Italians are blond while some Germans are not. And you’re saying that they’re going to make a special point of differentiating Afro-Cubans?
John Mace. You’ve claimed to be reporting how it was used, and I was suggesting a point of inquiry that would help settle the matter. Surely, if this is a grassroots belief among of black immigrant groups that they should be called “African-Americans”, it should be evident on the internet. At best, you’re only proving other people don’t know what the hell they’re talking about when they say African-American and apply it to foreign born blacks and immigrants and their descendents. That NYT article said there was a debate… show me the immigrants debating it.
Excapno Mapcase. The same general population that celebrated the end of the second millennium on my birthday in 1999 because they could count to a thousand…? Millions being deluded about what a term means doesn’t correct misuse of the terminology.
Oooh, I just thought of an analogy that might even further elucidate my point. Yay!! Here goes…
“Doctor” is used interchangably with “physician”, in the US. When grandma says she’s going to the doctor, we all know who she’s going to see. We don’t think to ourselves “Is Grandma going to the veterinarian?” We understand exactly what she means when she says doctor.
But oddly enough, doctor is defined thusly:
So why don’t we assume that grandma is talking about a veterinarian? Afterall, aren’t they doctors? Of course they are, but that’s besides the point. When most people hear “doctor”, they think of a person with a specific and distinct background. They don’t think of dentists and vets, although they too fit under the definition. (Because of the potential for confusion, when interacting with layfolk, I rarely identify myself as doctor even though I more than qualify. And plus, why in the hell would any blue-blooded veterinarian want to be lumped together with those crusty ole physicians, anyway?)
To extrapolate this to A-A: most people use the term to refer to a specific subset of black people. Maybe occasionally they will call a black immigrant an A-A (just as occasionally someone will call me a doctor) but for the most part, people understand that when you say A-A, you are not talking about fresh-off-the-boat Africans.
A-A is to the descendant of American slaves as doctor is to physician. According to the dictionary definitions, neither group has a monopoly on their respective terms. But in practice, everyone understands that A-A usually means the subset of blacks who descend from Africans involuntary imported over here. Just like we understand that doctor means physician.
::drops microphone Chris Rock style and walks off the stage::
Can we have a cite that “most people” use the term that way. I’m not sure why you keep making that assumption in light of the overwhelming evidence against it. Personally, I have never heard of this distinction until reading about it in this thread. I suspect my experience is common among Whites in this country.
So, here’s the deal.
You’re sitting on the Supreme Court and are hearing a case brought by a recent Black African immigrant who was denied access to an Affirmative Action program in his state because the law, as written, stated it was designed for “African-Americans”. Do you rule in favor of the claimant or in favor of the state?
You’re a policeman tracking down a suspect whom the victim described as an African-American wearing a red scarf and standing 6’ 6" tall. You spot a man matching that description, but when you question him he speaks in a heavy accent and shows you his passport which indicates he only recently arrived here from Ethiopia. Do you let the guy go or hold him for further questioning?
As I said earlier, we might surmise that the more restrictive definition applies to AAVE, but not to American English (as spoken by the majority of people in this country). Now, it might be that because there are so many more Whites than Blacks, that no term will ever quite fit because most White people will use at as a synonym for “Black”. That’s an ufortunate fact, perhaps, but it is a fact no less.