# Are all Confederate Monuments and Memorials Offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168 "2021-07-10T16:52:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/41 "2021-07-11T03:02:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ddi you read those cites? I did. I didn’t see anything that talked about Americans burying Germans with honors. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/42 "2021-07-11T03:18:59Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I did. I didn’t see anything that talked about Americans burying Germans with honors. Some of you might find the very last section of this Wikipedia article interesting. > **[Utah prisoner of war massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_prisoner_of_war_massacre)** > > The Utah prisoner of war massacre (headlined by Time as Midnight Massacre) took place after the end of World War II in Europe at midnight on July 8, 1945, at a German and Italian prisoner-of-war camp in Salina, Utah. Nine German prisoners of war were murdered and nineteen prisoners were wounded by American private Clarence V. Bertucci, who was on active duty in the camp. After a night out, Bertucci returned to camp around midnight to assume his night duty at the guard tower. Bertucci subseq The v... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/43 "2021-07-11T03:56:17Z")
Then you did not read-_It contains the graves of 10,913 German servicemen from the Battle of the Bulge in winter 1944 and spring 1945. Of these, 5,599 were buried by the American war graves service during the war;_ ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/44 "2021-07-11T04:04:41Z")
Who or what is the “American War Graves Service?” I’m familiar with the German version of that, but it’s a private charity, not a government entity. We’re also talking about less than 6,000 soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/45 "2021-07-11T06:06:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Carving, was carved by Gutzon Borglum A minor correction; Stone Mountain was originally intended to be carved by Borglum, but his start on it was eventually blasted off and the monument was actually carved by Henry Augustus Lukeman. Borglum then went on to carve Mount Rushmore. This is not to say Borglum wasn’t just as detestable as you hint at; he did indeed develop ties to the KKK, and it was only friction between himself and the Stone Mountain organizers that caused him to leave the project. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/46 "2021-07-11T06:48:48Z")
Relevant tweet; > ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/47 "2021-07-11T07:14:17Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > On the other hand, what about monuments and memorials such as the following? I know of one memorial to all of the soldiers who died during all of the wars who were from a particular county. The memorial is on the county court house lawn. The memorial includes soldiers from the C.S.A. So, just to be clear, it includes all soldiers who joined any side in any war so long as they originally come from this county? If so, does that mean that if some misguided kid ran off to join ISIS or the Taliban and got himself killed, they’d put his name on the monument? If not, what’s the difference between people who hate America so much that they took up arms against it, and the Taliban? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/48 "2021-07-11T08:17:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If not, what’s the difference between people who hate America so much that they took up arms against it, and the Taliban? As stated, many Confederate soldiers were drafted. Americans who joined the Taliban were not. I don’t know the answer to the part of your post that I didn’t quote. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/49 "2021-07-11T09:12:46Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > If they joined the army at least they might have gotten something to eat. As opposed to - growing their own crops? I mean, it’s not like a lot of factory workers were laid off at the start of the war or anything. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, serve or be executed. That’s not a choice. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > For some of them, the other choice was to be shot. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > The South instituted a draft during the Civil War before the North did. Those who were drafted didn’t have a choice. Oh, right, I forgot they were all tied up and incapable of [any](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_Peace_Society) [other](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Strings) [action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Unionist#History) before they were shoved into uniform. [False dilemma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma), it’s a fallacy for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/50 "2021-07-11T09:19:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are from South Africa, yes? Has your family lived there for a long time? Did they rise up in armed rebellion against Apartheid? Did they rebel against the British Concentration camps of the Boer? And so forth? or did they just go along? “Yes”, “Hundreds to thousands of years, depending on which part of my family you mean”, “Yes, although I didn’t specify _armed_ rebellion for the Southerners anyway”, and “Why would we?” for the first 4 questions. When you come up with any other specific irrelevant _tu quoque_ attempts, do ask away. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/51 "2021-07-11T10:43:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then you did not read- _It contains the graves of 10,913 German servicemen from the Battle of the Bulge in winter 1944 and spring 1945. Of these, 5,599 were buried by the American war graves service during the war;_ If you read that whole cite, there’s also this: > [@](#): > > They had mostly lain in mass graves for which only incomplete records were available Not exactly “burial with honors”. It’s pretty extraordinary in wartime to even identify enemy soldiers at burial, much less give them any honors. In fact, in WW2 even a lot of friendlies went into mass graves and were never recovered. Resources are stretched thin, the priority is to take care of corpses as a sanitary concern. It’s easier to dump them all in a trench and let someone else sort it out later, and that’s historically what happened in the most challenging parts of the war. All of which is a side point to the fact that Confederates deserve no monuments whatsoever honoring them. They fought for an illegitimate separatist movement, many at gunpoint, and they lost. They may have had no choice, but that doesn’t exactly add to the honor. At a minimum I’d support identifying bodies to the extent possible and returning them to their families to handle as they see fit. After all they are American, even if they pretended otherwise for a bit. But absolutely no military honors or glorification of what they did. The few Confederates buried at Arlington should be returned to their families in a box, or if no family is available, rebury them in a marked pauper’s grave where the homeless and whatnot are buried. The Confederate memorial at Arlington should be destroyed, it has no place there or anywhere in America. Traitors shouldn’t be rewarded, honored, or glorified, ever. People need to know that if you join an illegitimate separatist insurrection, you get a bullet in your head, and you go home to your mother in a box with no medals, flags, or statues (if it’s convenient). ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/52 "2021-07-11T11:33:10Z")
I can’t think of any that I don’t consider offensive. Even if you were drafted into the Confederate army, there’s no reason to memorialize you. I was always irritated as hell by this dumbass monument. It was pretty transparently racist as hell. Erected in 1919, and had water fountains at the base of the columns. One had “White” engraved over it, and the other had “Colored”. Neither had worked in decades when I was living near it. Thankfully, it’s now gone. > **[Denton Confederate Soldier Monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denton_Confederate_Soldier_Monument)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > The Denton Confederate Soldier Monument was an outdoor Confederate memorial installed in downtown Denton, Texas, in the United States. > The statue depicts an armed Confederate soldier standing on an arch with the inscription, "Our Confederate Soldiers".\[citation needed\] > The monument was funded and erected in 1918 by the Katie Daffan Chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/53 "2021-07-11T11:41:54Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > Yeah, don’t have statues to actual literal traitors. How is this a discussion? > > They weren’t traitors, the atmosphere at Gettysburg was more like a regular group of tourists. I lol’d. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/54 "2021-07-11T12:20:55Z")
I have the utmost respect for those Southerners who did join the military of their nation to fight against the villainy of their neighbors. They clearly did the right thing. But that’s not what I expect of any of them. Those who merely hid from the press gangs and hoped the whole thing would end soon also did the right thing, and I can ask no more of them. But those who voluntarily went along with treason against their country and their state, for the sake of defending an evil institution, they did not do the right thing, and their actions are no more worthy of memorial than those of any other traitor. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/55 "2021-07-11T13:48:38Z")
I frequently describe the Confederate flag as our country’s largest and most enduring participation trophy. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/56 "2021-07-11T14:10:03Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > What’s next, WW2 monuments honoring the SS of Malmedy for their valiant service? I wouldn’t see a problem, though, with a monument analogous to what the OP actually described, which your example is not. Suppose a little town in Germany had a monument that did not extol the virtues of the Nazi cause, but merely memorialized the sons of that town lost in the war? That seems okay to me. Whatever the evils of their cause, German soldiers - most of them just guys, not Nazis - had families and their deaths were tragedies. Consider the Vietnam War Memorial. The US is no Nazi Germany, but its cause in Vietnam was largely unjust and the government of the USA committed dreadful war crimes there and in Laos and Cambodia. Yet I do not find that memorial distasteful. It clearly exists not to glorify the war, but to remember the tens of thousands of Americans who died in it and left behind their loved ones. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/57 "2021-07-11T14:44:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Consider the Vietnam War Memorial. The US is no Nazi Germany, but its cause in Vietnam was largely unjust and the government of the USA committed dreadful war crimes there and in Laos and Cambodia. Yet I do not find that memorial distasteful. It clearly exists not to glorify the war, but to remember the tens of thousands of Americans who died in it and left behind their loved ones. War memorials don’t really exist to glorify the cause, though. It’s about honoring citizens who performed their duty when their country called. The country doesn’t always call for good or just reasons, but we answer its call nevertheless. Confederates don’t have a claim to honor for heeding the call of duty. They didn’t serve a country because the Confederacy was no country, just an illegitimate splinter faction. They attacked their own country, killed their own countrymen, stole their property and destroyed their works. Even if it were the noblest cause in the world, that doesn’t matter; they betrayed their country. I’ll stop short of condemning the rank-and-file because most had no choice to serve… but they deserve no honor or recognition. None whatsoever. A grave marker with their name, and nothing more. And the officers should be uniformly condemned. We should especially stop using military honorifics like “General” for Lee and similar leaders. Owing to being soundly defeated, they did not retire in rank, and their ranks were never legitimate because they were never promoted by any legitimate authority. They are simply disgraced criminal separatist leaders who never held any legitimate military rank after resigning their US Army commissions. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/58 "2021-07-11T14:53:20Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Confederates don’t have a claim to honor for heeding the call of duty. They didn’t serve a country because the Confederacy was no country, just an illegitimate splinter faction. I doubt the several million people in southeast Asia killed by the USA care that the United States is a legitimate nation-state; that just seems a really thin line to put one memorial on one side and one on the other. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > We should especially stop using military honorifics like “General” for Lee and similar leaders. I would agree with not honoring Confederate leaders, of course. Proper memorials - like the Vietnam memorial - do not honor. They remember. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/59 "2021-07-11T15:02:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I doubt the several million people in southeast Asia killed by the USA care that the United States is a legitimate nation-state; that just seems a really thin line to put one memorial on one side and one on the other. That’s why the Vietnam memorial is in DC and not in Ho Chi Minh City. We honor ours, they honor theirs. > [@RickJay](#): > > I would agree with not honoring Confederate leaders, of course. Proper memorials - like the Vietnam memorial - do not honor. They remember. I’ve been to memorial displays in Vietnam and it’s a lot more celebratory, which I found quite appropriate. Ours is a lot more subdued, which also is very appropriate. There’s no appropriate memorial for Confederates. Whatever their motives, they became dishonorable criminals and traitors the moment they started working against the US. They deserve a marked grave with a tombstone like any other civilian, but zero military honor or recognition whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/60 "2021-07-11T15:37:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Confederates declared war on the United States and killed American soldiers. > > I don’t see that as a cause we should be putting up monuments to in the United States. No question that we shouldn’t be memorializing or honoring the Confederacy itself. But remembering the Confederate soldiers who died? Maybe not that either, but IMHO that’s not as clear-cut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168.md?page=4)