# Are all Confederate Monuments and Memorials Offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168 "2021-07-10T16:52:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/81 "2021-07-12T00:53:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, no we are not such much discussing Confederate Monuments _in general_ , **we are talking about those that honor the war dead.** They can have a tombstone because they are human beings who deserve that level of dignity. They do NOT deserve to be honored as “war dead” any more than Osama Bin Laden’s henchmen who died when the US stormed his compound do. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/82 "2021-07-12T00:57:35Z")
I can understand your point here. I am sorta wishy-washy on the idea of memorials other than simple headstones and the like, certainly a few of them cross the line into glorifying. So Headstones- OK. Glorifying traitorous leaders & generals- bad Simple memorials to the dead- maybe. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/83 "2021-07-12T01:02:30Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > > But I can’t buy the idea that we should hide away all art depicting traitors. > > Has anybody suggested that? When the take-downs started, you would read something like this towards the end of most articles documenting a monument take-down: [The memorial, which was erected in 1905 while Southern heritage groups were promoting a version of Civil War history that cast the Southern cause as noble, will be taken to a Confederate history park.](https://web.archive.org/web/20200930062221/https://apnews.com/article/alabama-anniston-archive-racial-injustice-0e474121273e52b1aacd6d4b53220dc2:) That’s what I meant by hiding away. Maybe that was wrong of me in that these confederate history parks and museums, where the statues were moved, are easily located. If you show me some links about these growing confederate history parks, I’ll quality or withdraw my comment. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/84 "2021-07-12T01:55:40Z")
You sentence said “all art.” I commented on that. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/85 "2021-07-12T02:02:00Z")
Virgil! Quick, come see! There goes Robert E. Lee! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/86 "2021-07-12T02:28:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The problem with using the Vietnam Memorial as an example is that it’s unusually creative and well executed. I doubt whether there are any Confederate monuments that display a tenth or a hundredth of its good taste. That’s probably true. I wasn’t referring to any specific monument, just the concept. In fact, many Confederate monuments are quite openly celebrations of white supremacy even MORE than they are monuments. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/87 "2021-07-12T17:12:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But those who voluntarily went along with treason against their country and their state, for the sake of defending an evil institution, they did not do the right thing, and their actions are no more worthy of memorial than those of any other traitor. You’re right – their actions are no more worthy of memorial than those of any other traitor. But I’m comfortable with memorials to war dead (from all sides) because we should be reminded, every day, of the awful cost of war. For that reason, I don’t think Confederate war dead should be forgotten. Memorializing war dead would not, to my mind, include or justify erecting (or even allowing to remain standing)statues of Confederate leaders or glorifying the service of Confederate soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/88 "2021-07-13T00:06:53Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > Virgil! Quick, come see! There goes Robert E. Lee! Yes, I have been thinking of Mr Kane too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/89 "2021-07-13T02:10:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it is a tombstone, not a monument. And so? I think it’s a major difference. People generally get a tombstone when they die. I have no problem with that. But most people don’t get a monument. When somebody decides to put up a monument it’s because they want to advance an ideological cause. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/90 "2021-07-13T15:20:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In fact, many Confederate monuments are quite openly celebrations of white supremacy even MORE than they are monuments. A lot of the Confederate monuments were placed in response to the [City Beautiful](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Beautiful_movement) movement in the late 19th early 20th century. The movement was concentrated in a few northern cities, but it trickled down to a lot of other municipalities who were suddenly interested in creating parks, lovely spaces with fountains, nice buildings, and erecting memories. I had a discussion about this with a colleague of mine when I worked at a museum many years ago. This was pre-BLM and George Floyd, and in the public history world Confederate monuments was a topic of interest. My colleague wasn’t happy about people wanting to be rid of the monuments and argued that they existed because of the beautification movement and I agreed. However, why did he suppose they picked so many Confederate “heroes” to honor? It seems clear to me that these statues were there to send a message. These were the good old days, this is how things should be, and this is how things will be. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/91 "2021-07-13T15:32:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > When somebody decides to put up a monument it’s because they want to advance an ideological cause. I remember seeing a lot of monuments on the Gettysburg battlefield, mostly in remembrance of specific Union military units/regiments. They were placed there to express pride in one’s unit and to honor fallen comrades (there didn’t seem to be a direct correlation between the grandiosity of the monument and the unit’s contributions to winning the battle; for instance I don’t recall anything fancy in commemoration of the 20th Maine). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/92 "2021-07-13T16:35:15Z")
It’s true that the City Beautiful movement, which got its impetus from the white, classical architecture at the 1893 World’s Fair, overlapped with the peak period for erecting monuments to the Confederacy, which was from 1900 to 1920. I think it’s grossly misleading to therefore say that the former caused the latter. Rather, the movement gave plausible cover to the rank intentions of putting up monuments to the Confederacy. They were a small part of a large-scale campaign of harassment and terror. This commentary by [Daniel Bluestone](https://www.bu.edu/articles/2017/confederate-civil-war-monuments/), about the monuments in Charlotteville, VA, summarizes those intentions. > Paul Goodloe McIntire had commissioned the major civic monuments in Charlottesville. McIntire, the son of a local pharmacist, grew rich working at Chicago’s Board of Trade and New York’s Stock Exchange. Returning to Charlottesville, he became a one-man City Beautiful Movement; he built prominent statues of Revolutionary hero George Rogers Clark, explorers Meriwether Lewis and William Clark and their Shoshone guide Sacagawea, and Confederate officers Robert E. Lee and Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson. McIntire also gave the city two major public parks, one for whites and one for African Americans. He funded and built the public library and endowed art, business, and history departments at the University of Virginia. > > McIntire’s Civil War monuments had an immediate and obvious context. In 1912, building on established Jim Crow laws, the city council of Charlottesville unanimously passed a segregation ordinance, making it illegal for whites to move onto blocks that were majority black or for African Americans to move onto majority white blocks. At the time, the entire row of residences facing the west side of Court House Square had become occupied by African Americans. City officials felt this constituted a blight on their civic landscape. They planned a public school there, which would permit them to condemn and demolish the black residences. School officials balked at a school adjacent to the court and jail. Then McIntire simply purchased and demolished every house on the block. He commissioned sculptor Charles Keck to design the distinguished Jackson equestrian statue for the site. The intent was plain. The project reasserted Court House Square as white civic space. It monumentalized the Civil War’s effort to maintain chattel slavery in a town that by the 1920s was made up of 28 percent African Americans. Born in 1860, McIntire hardly experienced the Civil War; however, his father owned eight slaves and McIntire endorsed segregation. He sympathized with one side in the Civil War, and he put the white Southern narrative into the saddle with his money and his monuments. For McIntire, heritage and the current politics of white supremacy went hand in hand. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/93 "2021-07-13T17:12:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I think it’s grossly misleading to therefore say that the former caused the latter. Rather, the movement gave plausible cover to the rank intentions of putting up monuments to the Confederacy. They were a small part of a large-scale campaign of harassment and terror. I didn’t say the beautification movement caused anyone to put up Confederate monuments. Only that the impetus to put up monuments at all, at least to the degree that they started popping up, stemmed from the movement. It was a deliberate choice on the part of various southern organizations to honor Civil War “heroes.” I disagree that the beautification movement gave anyone a plausible cover for what their intentions were with those monuments. Simply put, they had very little need to cover their true intentions back then. Those monuments are a deliberate message that white supremacy is is good and people should know their place. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/94 "2021-07-13T18:20:22Z")
Monuments are reflections of what we choose to remember. Different people will look at the same monument and see different things. I’ve often wondered if it would be productive to graffiti, Banksy-style, actual despicable quotes from the individual still honored. The act of painting over it would be the literal whitewashing of history. The continued defacement of the given statue would be attacking power with truth. Even in front of loads of people in broad daylight, ‘Rosa Parks’ that shit > The usual **penalties** for **graffiti** may include: Property Damage exceeding $400: 1-3 years and /or fine of up to $10,000 or more depending on the severity of the damage. Property Damage less than $400: punishable by a misdemeanor with **penalties** of up to 1 year In county jail and/or maximum of $1,000 fine Doesn’t seem that bad, it will get on the news and this monument and the quote will be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/95 "2021-07-13T18:52:52Z")
One of the first monuments removed had nothing to do with the Civil War at all (although others removed around the same time were to honor Confederate figures, so I think they were lumped together in the public’ mind). It was the _Battle of Liberty Place_ monument, and it was unabashedly a monument erected in honor of an illegal overthrow of government and in the name of white supremacy. it even said so on the monument > [@](#): > > The [1872 Louisiana gubernatorial election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_gubernatorial_election,_1872) was a particularly contentious contest between Democrat [John McEnery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEnery_(Louisiana_politician)) and Republican [William Pitt Kellogg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pitt_Kellogg). In a close contest, Kellogg was declared the winner by outgoing Republican [Henry C. Warmoth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_C._Warmoth). Democratic forces in the state legislature succeeded in impeaching Warmoth after this action, and both Kellogg and McEnery claimed victory. Kellogg’s win was later certified by the federal government. McEnery and his supporters continued to dispute the result, and in 1874 established a competing legislature. In September 1874, a paramilitary force called the [White League](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_League) entered the city (then the state capital) to forcibly unseat Kellogg. On September 19, they defeated city and state police and militia in the [Battle of Liberty Place](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place) and occupied government buildings; they withdrew after President [Ulysses S. Grant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant) sent federal troops to the city.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place_Monument#cite_note-1) > … > The following inscription was added in 1932: > > > McEnery and Penn having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people, were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored). United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized **white supremacy** in the South and gave us our state. (bolding mine) > **[Battle of Liberty Place Monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liberty_Place_Monument)** > > The Battle of Liberty Place Monument is a stone obelisk on an inscribed plinth, formerly on display in New Orleans, in the U.S. state of Louisiana, commemorating the "Battle of Liberty Place", an 1874 attempt by Democratic White League paramilitary organizations to take control of the government of Louisiana from its Reconstruction Era Republican leadership after a disputed gubernatorial election. > Erected in 1891 by a Southern Democratic-dominated city government in honor of the White League, t... ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/96 "2021-07-13T19:01:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Monuments are reflections of what we choose to remember. Different people will look at the same monument and see different things. I’ve often wondered if it would be productive to graffiti, Banksy-style, actual despicable quotes from the individual still honored. The act of painting over it would be the literal whitewashing of history. The continued defacement of the given statue would be attacking power with truth. Even in front of loads of people in broad daylight, ‘Rosa Parks’ that shit You may remember [Bree Newsome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bree_Newsome) who was arrested for removing the Confederate flag from the South Carolina state house grounds back in 2015. Placing graffiti may constitute property damage exceeding $400 which your cite says carries with it a fine of up to $10,000 or more and/or 1-3 years of jail. I certainly admire the conviction of anyone willing to risk jail time and fines for a good cause though. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/97 "2021-07-13T19:39:51Z")
I am just barely OK with what the OP describes. I don’t like that the traitors get to be on the same rock as the Americans, but I wouldn’t bother blowing it up over that. In general, simple memorials to fallen Rebels, listing their names, ranks, etc, and not explicitly or implicitly stating that the cause they died for wasn’t evil, located either in their hometowns or near the place where they died, are OK with me. That’s as far as I will go. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/98 "2021-07-13T20:40:57Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In general, simple memorials to fallen Rebels, listing their names, ranks, etc, and not explicitly or implicitly stating that the cause they died for wasn’t evil, located either in their hometowns or near the place where they died, are OK with me. That’s as far as I will go. I concur. Nothing big or flashy, nothing apologistic. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/99 "2021-07-13T20:46:01Z")
Umm, who is putting up these simple memorials to fallen Rebels? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168/100 "2021-07-13T20:56:06Z")
Well, I’m certainly not going to chip in for them! But the monument the OP described seems similar to that. There is a Confederate cemetery near Chicago; I haven’t been there but I believe there are just gravestones there. I don’t live in the South so I really have no idea how common such monuments actually are, but to the extent they exist I don’t object to them. Now that I think about it, though, I would seriously question the motives of anyone proposing to erect even such understated monuments NOW, except to replace offensive memorials which have been dismantled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-confederate-monuments-and-memorials-offensive/946168.md?page=6)