# Are all military pilots officers (non-NCO)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 11, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917 "2016-04-11T19:20:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/41 "2016-04-12T18:27:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > So… let me see if I have this right. Warrant officers fulfill a role where you want more technical expertise and experience than you’re likely to get with an enlisted soldier, but without the command expectations or responsibility that you’d have with an O-grade officer? This is exactly right. The Army’s goal is that it wants the officers to have broad experience in multiple positions, so they get bounced around between various command, executive admin, and staff jobs. The goal is to make them well-rounded officers. A Warrant is a “single track specialty officer” that will focus their energy on becoming increasingly expert in their discipline. The best analogy I can make is to compare it to a university: The Officer is the Dean or a Department Head, while the Warrant is that one tenured professor who hides in the corner and cranks out research papers. > [@](#): > > How do the other services handle that role? Does the Army \*really \*use warrant officers more than the other services, outside of helicopter pilots? I can’t speak to this one. The Air Force no longer uses warrant officers at all. I have encountered Marine Warrant counterparts, but the Marine Corps structures their organization so differently (at least, where my specific discipline is concerned) that a direct comparison is difficult. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/42 "2016-04-12T20:03:43Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I can’t speak to this one. The Air Force no longer uses warrant officers at all. I have encountered Marine Warrant counterparts, but the Marine Corps structures their organization so differently (at least, where my specific discipline is concerned) that a direct comparison is difficult. Because the Navy Department (Navy and Marines) had a different evolution of their specialty officer classes than the War (later Army/AF) Dept.; that history also throws into the mix things like Limited Duty Officers, who have commissioned ranks, but who like the WO came up from the enlisted ratings and are more focused on their technical field. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/43 "2016-04-12T23:49:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is not true. Excuse me? ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/44 "2016-04-13T01:32:57Z")
I was in the Air Force just before the big escalation in Viet Nam. The Army was desperate for helicopter pilots (for some reason) and were recruiting cross-service. You have to be a sergeant of some sort in order to qualify. I don’t remember the insignia and such but I do remember hearing the Warrant Officers were not welcome in either the clubs for officer’s or enlisted personnel. We always considered them enlisted personnel and this was before the Senior and Chief master sergeant ranks were invented. If they are now welcome in the officer’s club, then things have definitely change; and probably for the better. Bon ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/45 "2016-04-13T02:50:18Z")
> [@urban1a](#): > > I was in the Air Force just before the big escalation in Viet Nam. The Army was desperate for helicopter pilots (for some reason) and were recruiting cross-service. You have to be a sergeant of some sort in order to qualify. > > I don’t remember the insignia and such but I do remember hearing the Warrant Officers were not welcome in either the clubs for officer’s or enlisted personnel. We always considered them enlisted personnel and this was before the Senior and Chief master sergeant ranks were invented. If they are now welcome in the officer’s club, then things have definitely change; and probably for the better. > > Bon That would put you at the point when the big divergence took place, the WO pilots became a major frontline asset for the Army while the Air Force made a point of trying to get rid of them. Part of the issue was that in the 50s there were many senior officers who started their careers pre-WW2 who viewed the WOs as glorified “flying sergeants” created by wartime need and desired the “natural order” to be restored; it did not help that during that time the WO grades were being used as relief valve for NCOs who were stuck maxed out and as safety net for operational-commission officers who would lose their billet in peacetime force reductions. [PDF article from 1991](https://warrantofficerhistory.org/PDF/AFA_1191tween.pdf)on what happened with the WOs in the Army and Air Force between the 1948 split and when USAF stopped creating new WOs, and a bit of comment on the situation c. 1990. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/46 "2016-04-13T20:11:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > 2016 military pay scale [righ here](http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp) for you. CWO5 at 20 years would be making O4 at 14 years to O6 at 3 years pay (but I’ve never heard of someone being O6 these days with just 3 years service); a CWO5 at 38 years service (the top of the pay chart) would be receiving O6 at 18 years to O7 at 8 years service pay. Those are, of course rough approximations, give or take just a few bucks. Man, I had no idea military pay was so decent; a Major with 20 years in makes $103k a year before any allowances or cost of living adjustments. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/47 "2016-04-13T22:56:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Man, I had no idea military pay was so decent; a Major with 20 years in makes $103k a year before any allowances or cost of living adjustments. Of course when you factor in that they control you 24/7, combat tours, hardship tours, field duty, etc. it isn’t so much. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/48 "2016-04-13T23:34:44Z")
What happens if an enlisted person has, or obtains, a civilian pilot’s license? Does that mean anything in terms of the military? Assume that he has, or can get, a civilian type rating in some kind of plane that the military also flies. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/49 "2016-04-14T00:08:09Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The best analogy I can make is to compare it to a university: The Officer is the Dean or a Department Head, while the Warrant is that one tenured professor who hides in the corner and cranks out research papers. By chance I was reading some English stuff recently, and this is exactly the kind of thing they had in mind for their WO to CO transition program. A WO who had worked his way up to Department Head, promoted to Commissioned Officer with no loss of status to become Head of Base / Institution / Station I was interested to see the comments about WO’s not being welcomed in the Enlisted or Officers mess in the past. I thought 🙂 that since traditionally services were run by non-commissed officers, the non-com mess was the one officers weren’t allowed into except by special invitation 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/50 "2016-04-14T01:46:58Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > What happens if an enlisted person has, or obtains, a civilian pilot’s license? Does that mean anything in terms of the military? Assume that he has, or can get, a civilian type rating in some kind of plane that the military also flies. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. With the notable exception of doctors, nurses, and lawyers the military will teach you your job from square zero. All you need to know how to do is tie your shoes, be potty trained, and read at a 5th grade level. They’ll teach you everything else. There are various programs for enlisted folks to compete for an opportunity to train for officer status. And similar opportunities officers who are not in specialties like pilot to compete for the opportunity to train into that job. The numbers are tiny, but they’re not zero. Extracurricular civilian experience and training is a good way to get a leg up in those competitions. But only in that you’re a more skillful competitor; not that the military puts much stock in the learning you may have gotten outside. The other exception is ordinary college degrees. The military is not equipped to teach and grant associates, bachelors, or masters degrees to service members. But they will accept such degrees from accredited institutions at face value. They further encourage their senior enlisted to get a bachelors and all but require mid-career officers to get a Masters. The specific field isn’t a big deal except for some very specialized jobs. Getting the pigskin & filling the square is the threshold issue. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/51 "2016-04-14T01:53:13Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > … > I was interested to see the comments about WO’s not being welcomed in the Enlisted or Officers mess in the past. I thought 🙂 that since traditionally services were run by non-commissed officers, the non-com mess was the one officers weren’t allowed into except by special invitation 🙂 It goes both ways. The social divide between officer & enlisted is just about total except in the field. Enlisted are verboten and unwelcome in the O clubs. Officers are equally unwelcome & verboten in the E clubs. WOs had the problem of not being either, and being too small a cadre to have clubs of their own. Different services solved the problem in different directions. But the social \*fish outta water \*problem remained whichever way they did it. I served 3 years on a combined Army / Air Force facility overseas. It was really an Air Force base with a large Army helo unit renting space. So the Army officer/warrant corps outnumbered the USAF officer corps about 3 to 1. But it was still a USAF O club with amenities to USAF standards: pretty nice. To which the Army officers and warrants were fully welcome dues paying members. Everybody was cordial, but there was still a distance, both between USAF & Army and between officers & warrants. Kinda like an inter-frat party at the university. All the other houses are friends, but not like your own fratmates who’re comrades. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/52 "2016-04-14T05:55:24Z")
So who did you chug with? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/53 "2016-04-14T13:38:24Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > Of course when you factor in that they control you 24/7, combat tours, hardship tours, field duty, etc. it isn’t so much. I wasn’t meaning that it was awesome compensation overall, but that it was more than I realized. Back when I was in college, it was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than what those posted charts showed, even adjusted for inflation. Few people other than the extremely gung-ho were going into the military, as the civilian options were far more lucrative. Somewhere in the last 20 years, there must have been a big pay raise, as a Major with 20 years time in service (what I’d be, if I’d joined out of college, and stayed in) actually makes MORE than I do now, and I’m an IT professional who earns somewhere about the nationwide median for my particular job. Most bachelor’s level jobs with 20 years of experience don’t even approach six figures. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/54 "2016-04-14T13:42:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Somewhere in the last 20 years, there must have been a big pay raise, as a Major with 20 years time in service (what I’d be, if I’d joined out of college, and stayed in) actually makes MORE than I do now, and I’m an IT professional who earns somewhere about the nationwide median for my particular job. Military pay started to increase a lot after they stopped relying on conscripts so much. It’s a very good thing overall; a professional military with deep experience (and good incentives for experienced people to stay in the service) is much more effective. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/55 "2016-04-14T14:42:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The other exception is ordinary college degrees. The military is not equipped to teach and grant associates, bachelors, or masters degrees to service members. But they will accept such degrees from accredited institutions at face value. I don’t agree with this. The Academies are all Bachelor’s degree-granting institutions. I have an Associate’s Degree from the Defense Language Institute. I know for a fact the Command and General Staff College grants Graduate degrees. And aside from the degree itself, practically every military course provides some college credit, usually through an agreement with certain universities. [QUOTE=bump] Man, I had no idea military pay was so decent; a Major with 20 years in makes $103k a year before any allowances or cost of living adjustments. [/quote] Yeah, but look at what that really means. A Major with 20 years is on the edge of retirement. Come to think of it, if you are still an Army Major after 20 years, you either switched over from the enlisted side or you really, really screwed up. Either way, the late-career pay HAS to be competitive if an all-volunteer Army expects to retain talented personnel. Take a look at the pay scale for junior enlisted and it is a completely different story. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/56 "2016-04-14T15:07:23Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I don’t agree with this. The Academies are all Bachelor’s degree-granting institutions. I have an Associate’s Degree from the Defense Language Institute. I know for a fact the Command and General Staff College grants Graduate degrees. > > And aside from the degree itself, practically every military course provides some college credit, usually through an agreement with certain universities. > … Agree completely. I was simplifying to provide info relevant to the question I was answering. As you say, I probably over-simplified. Thanks for filling in. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/57 "2016-04-14T15:39:30Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I don’t agree with this. The Academies are all Bachelor’s degree-granting institutions. I have an Associate’s Degree from the Defense Language Institute. I know for a fact the Command and General Staff College grants Graduate degrees. I graduated from DLI shortly before it became a degree-granting institution. My father graduated from the US Army War College before that institution began granting actual master’s degrees. Now those outfits, along with a couple of others (such as NPS), grant degrees. > [@](#): > > And aside from the degree itself, practically every military course provides some college credit, usually through an agreement with certain universities. By “certain universities”, you can mean “almost all”. There is also the Contract for Degree program which relieves the military member of the worry about losing credits in transfer. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but look at what that really means. A Major with 20 years is on the edge of retirement. Come to think of it, if you are still an Army Major after 20 years, you either switched over from the enlisted side or you really, really screwed up. Either way, the late-career pay HAS to be competitive if an all-volunteer Army expects to retain talented personnel. Throughout my career in both the Army and Navy, I saw a not insignificant number of officers leaving the service after “twice failed to select” for promotion. > [@](#): > > Take a look at the pay scale for junior enlisted and it is a completely different story. Yeppers. My base pay as an E-1 in the US Army was $419.40 a month. ETA: [Here](http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/charts/historical-military-pay-rates.html) is a site with the military pay tables in effective from 1 October 1949 to 1 January 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/58 "2016-04-14T16:14:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Excuse me? I did some reading on this, and you are correct. This is a recent job and title though and I wondered why I never heard of any significant actions because of it in the AF, and it’s because there hasn’t been an AF SNCO selected for it yet. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/59 "2016-04-14T16:38:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I graduated from DLI shortly before it became a degree-granting institution. My father graduated from the US Army War College before that institution began granting actual master’s degrees. Now those outfits, along with a couple of others (such as NPS), grant degrees. > > By “certain universities”, you can mean “almost all”. There is also the Contract for Degree program which relieves the military member of the worry about losing credits in transfer. > > Throughout my career in both the Army and Navy, I saw a not insignificant number of officers leaving the service after “twice failed to select” for promotion. > > Yeppers. My base pay as an E-1 in the US Army was $419.40 a month. > > ETA: [Here](http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/charts/historical-military-pay-rates.html) is a site with the military pay tables in effective from 1 October 1949 to 1 January 2014. However, keep in mind that most junior enlisted personnel are living on base (or on ship) and have almost all of their expenses already covered by the service. This means that the “pay” is almost all spending money. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917/60 "2016-04-14T17:45:15Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > However, keep in mind that most junior enlisted personnel are living on base (or on ship) and have almost all of their expenses already covered by the service. This means that the “pay” is almost all spending money. This is a fair point. I recall one crusty old Sergeant complaining that the junior enlisted were the richest people he knew, because the Army provided their meals and quarters. If you are unmarried and have no kids, that is pretty accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-military-pilots-officers-non-nco/751917.md?page=4)