Sure, but that doesn’t really negate what I was saying; for a person in their early-mid 40s, making 100k a year is good money by any standard, and I didn’t realize the military paid *THAT *well.
My Friend was a WO4 and he said no one under the rank of Major generally messed with them.
Dont piss off senior NCOs. A new Lt did that to my Dad, who was the E7 in charge of payroll, leave etc for the National Gd. battalion.
Meals, quarters, healthcare. What else does the military potentially supply on top of the cash wage? What do enlisted tend to spend their non-reimbursed, not allowance-related money on?
Earlier, it was discussed how a WO tends to have specialist skills and stay within that specialty. I’ve seen WOs who served as training center directors or food service officer on a carrier* which are managerial positions which don’t require technical skills. How come WOs do those rather than officers or NCOs?
In infantry units, what does a WO do that a mid to high-level NCO would not be expected to do?
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Doesn’t exist. 11B has no Warrant equivalent.
Recent? Having retired from the USN on 29 February 2000, I feel your pain on that. The first SEA to the Chairman began serving in that position on 1 October 2015, a decade ago. Wiki has a page about it. There have been three SEAs to the Chairman and also a short (2 years plus change) period when the billet was unfilled.
Beer, babes (or dudes as the case may apply), and personal electronics/gaming 
Because he is a technical specialist. His technical specialty is in making sure the food supply for a ship out at sea for months at a time is suffficient, safe; properly organized, handled and served; replenished in a timely manner, and that the facilities, gear and staff for that mission are shipshape. There are command positions for WOs, over their specialized area of work.
Mind you, in a smaller vessel the food service officer would be a task foisted on some ensign or junior lieutenant as one of a handful various hats she’d be wearing/juggling simultaneously as part of her training for “general managing”, and the actual running of the kitchen and pantry would be done by a Petty Officer (NCO). But when you have yourself a crew of 5 thousand you want someone who’ll be giving managing food service their undivided expert attention and have an officer’s authority in that area.
List of the Army’s WO Military Occupational Specialties, and the enlisted MOS from where they may progress (remembering as mentioned before that pilots can enter from civilian recruitment). Not every field of enlisted specialty gets a WO equivalency. Of course, once you get a large enough infantry unit (Batallion, Brigade) you may have WOs there who are not themselves infantrymen, in support posts.
In the 1980s some health professions such as Physician Assistants were at WO grade, but since then it was changed so the health professions requiring bachelor’s or greater degree and a license in the civilian world would get commissioned officer posts.
OK, him: either he or the green 2LT better better put their coffee down when they pass or there’ll be trouble.
Just guessing here.
The formal rank structure is what it is. It’s like a wedding cake with three tiers each composed of multiple individual layers. The bottom tier is Enlisted. The middle tier is Warrants. The top tier is Officers.
For 95+% of each tier the people in it enter the military at the bottom of *their tier *and serve out their career entirely within that tier. Only a tiny easily ignorable fraction of people in each tier ever jump to the next tier. So officers start their career at the bottom of the top tier above everyone and everything in the two lower tiers.
Everybody follows orders and salutes along the formal lines of the tier system. Everybody. The guy in the wiki article does salute 2Lts. On the rare occasions he crosses the path of one. Hanging out in the Pentagon as he does, where one-star Generals make coffee he doesn’t see too many 2Lts.
Having said all that, everybody in the service is trained to and expected to respect skill and respect experience as well as respect rank. When push comes to shove, rank wins. Period. But if pushing is coming to shoving across a great disparity in experience, somebody is probably already screwing up.
So why does the super-duper senior enlisted dude in the wiki salute a 2Lt? Because he is a consummate professional and it’s part of the profession of arms. The professional 2Lt demonstrates his professionalism in return by respecting the gesture and the experience behind it. Not by pulling a dismissive Col Klink-style blow-off salute in return. Like those Values.com ads say: “Respect. Pass it on.” The military runs on respect. Respect for the service, the traditions, the people, and the mission.
I served 8 years as an officer. I had command of a couple dozen enlisted for a couple years as an O-2 & O-3. Ranging from newbies to guys approaching 20 years time in service. And mentored a bunch of younger officers although I never held a command slot over any officers.
In all that time I never issued an order. I made a lot of requests that would have become mandatory if there’d been resistance. But there wasn’t because we’re all professionals. And over that time I listened to an awful lot of advice from folks more experienced than I. Whether they were junior or senior Sergeants or senior officers.
In my time I fulfilled a lot of requests from senior officers. The requests were by and large mandatory had there been resistance. I can’t recall receiving an order as such.
I really have a hard time understanding why civilian folks find this so hard to understand and think it’s some weird foreign concept. Every business has grizzled workers out in the factory or field and shiny new MBAs back at HQ making decisions and telling people what to do. The senior factory workers work for and answer to those new MBAs either directly or indirectly. Civilian business also has newbies out in the factory or field and highly experienced managing directors & VPs riding herd on, and mentoring, the new MBAs.
Plus all the middle management in, well, the middle.
None of this military structure is foreign to civilian practice. It’s just more formal when push comes to shove. And the badges on everyone’s shirts make it unmistakable how the formal structure applies between any two players.
Respect. Pass it on.
Well, i consider any year starting with 20 as recent 
I refuse to believe that 2000 was 16 YEARS ago!
I just want to make clear here I’m being oh what’s the word, it’s French, I don’t know, badinage-ing. Of course I’m aware, in a general way, of what social relationships are within different communities.
God knows in business, as you say, such dexterity and decency is unspoken–unless push comes to shove. The most trying, in my experience, was dealing with…problems…with a contractor (a writer) who had gone freelance after 30 years in the business, in my job, in fact, and much older than me.
What I don’t know about, let alone try to incorporate in my understanding of a military career, is the salute, i.e., the acknowledge rank/experience/experience-even-if-the-guy’s-a-jerk-but-that’s-not-the-way-to-bet in day to day, non-combat situations.
Indeed, the lack-of-salute culture (in general) in the IDF, first names even at the unit level, always intrigued me, and I’ve posted a few threads on that as well.
ETA: addressed to the general, and to LSL above in particular.
Further to what LSLGuy says, a nurse with 20 years plus experience knows a hell of a lot more than a new doctor, a long service paralegal much more then a freshly qualified lawyer. No one considers the division strange.
Or you gave/were given instructions about what hdd to be done. The common way of describing it is, if you have to say “that was an order”, someone’s doing it wrong. If someone gets called on the carpet for not complying, the instructions and requests will be referred to as “orders” on the record.
This 30 second clip from Band of Brothers sums it up well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw
Relationships in the military aren’t supposed to be personal. Stressing this is useful and one of the main reasons for the use of uniforms even when they serve no directly task-related purpose.
Another way of stressing this is by giving each member of the organization a new first name which can change. For example, when I was in the military, my first name was “private” and my complete name resembled “Private Emouse L## ### ###”.
Me too. The Israeli military is an interesting one. I think it’s common for officers to be promoted from the ranks too which is also uncommon.
How did commanding people and pursuing objectives in the military differ from doing so in the civilian sector for you?
While I have an hypothesis, I’d like to hear from you why it was in the form of requests rather than orders.
Perhaps because in many civilian workplaces, it’s common enough for the officer class equivalent not to listen senior factory workers. I don’t know about the US but in Canada, units line up to the food hall line in increasing rank order so that junior enlisted get their food first and the highest ranking individual get his food last. Many civilian workplaces seem to have the opposite attitude to the point of some employees entering the company building thru a different door. The many months of military entry training also function as an extended asshole filter.
When an officer pulls rank on an NCO or WO without enough deference for the NCO/WO’s experience and skill, how is the officer’s behavior improved? Say, an LT1 (with possible Napoleon syndrome) has a habit of insisting on making dumb decisions and ignoring/not seeking advice from senior NCOs/WO3 even when the mission and situation make it reasonable to expect him to do so.
SF and Marines do, however. Apparently, some SF WOs lead combat teams. Given the age at which one can be expected to make enter WO, that’s got to be tough physically.
How come physicians/lawyers/nurses aren’t WOs? That would seem more fitting than commissioned officer since they are hired for their specialty and will typically remain within their specialty for their whole career.
If a WO5 is equivalent to a Lt Col. in terms of deference afforded, what NCO rank is roughly equivalent to a WO5 or Lt Col? WO1 seem to be something resembling officer cadets, is that about right? What are the officer and NCO equivalents to WO2, 3 and 4?
What reasons do NCOs who have a chance at becoming either WO or officer have for choosing WO?
That’s just how human beings talk to each other. I have never once heard someone say, “Private Snuffy, I order you to bring me a box of pens” or “I order you to sweep the floor.” There’s just no need for it.
I just say, “Hey Snuffy, could you get a me a box of pens?” or “Snuffy, it’s your turn to sweep the floor.” Unless he has a compelling reason that these tasks would be impossible, it is understood that it is not an optional request.
This is also true in the US Army.
The military does this, too. Usually when Flag Officers are involved.
Because the 1LT has an entire chain of command looking at him to make sure he doesn’t screw it up. If he makes a completely boneheaded decision that ends in disaster, his career is on the line. Next thing you know, he’s holding a General Officer Letter of Reprimand that says, “You did X against the advice of your senior warrant officer…” Heavy is the head that wears the crown, as they say.
18 series does not equal 11 series.
CSMs often get VIP perks like reserved parking spaces and lounges. WO1 is not a “cadet.” They are expected to be subject matter experts and are expected to hit the ground running. The only way in which a WO1 is “probationary” is that they can be ejected from the service at the two-year mark if their performance is not up to par. I’ve only seen that happen once.
As to your final question, there is no equivalency. I’ve heard people say things like, “An X gets paid similar to Y, so they must be equivalent…” but that’s not true. It’s apples and oranges.
I did it because being an officer sucks and being a warrant is awesome. I like my MOS, and I want to keep doing my work. I don’t want to have to give up my skill set to be a general manager. This is especially true in the US Army where Officers have little control over their branch assignment. I could be the best radio technician in the Army, drop an officer packet, and next thing I know I’m commanding an MP platoon. Lame.
And, as I mentioned above, being an officer entails a LOT of responsibility. Not everyone wants that out of life. The officers I see put in long hours and a lot of work, and that’s just not the kind of life I want. I have much more freedom and less responsibility as a Warrant than I would as an Officer. Now, I know I will never command a Battalion (for example) but that’s okay, because I’m very happy with the job I have.
FWIW, I can name two Officers who resigned to become Warrants because they were not happy with their jobs and being a Warrant is awesome.
I could imagine that the senior NCOs don’t really like the idea of becoming part of an altogether different subculture (i. e. the officer corps) at the bottom of the totem pole. Their new peers would be young lieutenants who are 10, 15 or maybe 20 years younger. The warrant officer track on the other hand could be viewed as merely an extension of the NCO career path.
I read about a senior NCO (in the German military) who declined to become a limited duty officer. He put it like this: “I’d rather be the king of arses than the arse of the kings”.
The clip from Band of Brothers–“you salute the rank, not the person” (I didn’t click it, but I bet that’s it)–is said at, logically enough for a drama, an extreme moment, the last interaction of a despised XO now risen in rank over his former tormentor.
I’m still wondering–in the kind of general way, I guess, like a kid who doesn’t know how grown ups act–is the constant, constant actual recognition.
I can see at one level it’s no more that saying “sir,” in a general way, in normal business conversation, which I am comfortable doing in most any conversation.
But that’s a two-way equivalent. Now, my image of the salute interaction–probably held to too strictly as the truth of the matter in normal military lifeis one-way, first, one way (“the other way” (with a difference) interaction.
I swear to God, I as a civilian woukd love to read an “etiquette” manual about the practice–that is, a rules book (obviously without legal force, as in the military) which talks about *the feel/feelings * of such interactions, as amusing as that sounds in the context.
I:
Halls of Pentagon: Officer passes officer, at a distance say they see each other, sent occur to either to wait till they can focus to check the collar; they salute each other. Equals, in speech, social: “Howdy, Sir.” “Right back atcha.”
True? Major question that back that, and in a way, all subsequent ones: Are you, by second nature perhaps, always checking rank?
II
Officers pass, notice each other. One is busy looking down, or talking with someone. Is salutes, doesn’t salute back. Anything?
III:
The salute-back thing. Remember, I go by movies (except for a stint as a med base volunteer in the IDF.) In Pentagon hallway: Junior salutes Senior. Senior doesn’t salute back. Often? And if so, Junior doesn’t even care, and if he cares too much, he better take it up with wife, shrink, or carrier counselor?
Social situations in the military I am broadly thinking about (non sociologist-depth)
Office normal, office crunch time, field normal, field crunch time
guys you work with normally,
ditto, when push has come to shove
All different. Everybody understands the two office times, and their possible fuck ups (which the military, by this very system, tries to eliminate): deadline time, a discrete occasion; I didn’t say please nice enough apparently to one of my staff editors, who went to the publisher. Hilarity ensued.
But I just don’t know how grown ups talk in that alternative planet military.
ETA: I never know how much OP–me–has in the way of directing, not modding his own thread; I don’t mind this hijack–and think it goes nicely in a ham-and-eggs kind of way with the OP proper-- but perhaps as an SD-intellectual thing it should get threaded out.
Nitpick: Pentagon hallway & courtyard = no salute zone. Expectation is you say “good morning, sir” (adjusted by time of day and gender).
Another purpose of the uniform, no doubt, is esprit de corps. One could even say that’s their main purpose today, not counting combat uniforms which, of course, are functional.
I started out with that same “first name”, and ended up, oddly enough, with the multi-syllabic “Petty Officer First Class”. It kind of reminds me of a couple of cultures where people in civilian life are addressed on the job by their job titles. Of course, those civilian jobs don’t have it as prevalent as the military does, but it’s still there.
In a small country where everyone (theoretically) must service in the military, that doesn’t seem so surprising to me. Heinlein postulated it in Starship Troopers (everyone who joined the military had to enlist and then only proven troopers could head for OCS, the only route in that story for commissioning).
In the military, it was made clear to me that a superior’s request was considered an order. As mentioned above, if that superior had to specify “This is an order”, then there’s already been a breakdown. In my civilian life, including when I was a department head myself, it was pretty much the same. Of course, this only goes for job-related stuff in both the military and civilian lives.
“Good management” is the answer I’d go with. Nobody likes being baldly told what to do. It’s also part of assisting, or training, the junior folks to climb the career ladder. Another reason is recognition of each tier’s senior members and their competence.
I think Japanese industry got this one right. Line workers have input and it’s recognized and respected. A company with a culture of managers who don’t listen to senior factory workers (who are or should be low-level to mid-level managers) deserves to fold.
I have never seen this in the US Armed Forces. What I have seen is the separation of the dining facilities into officer’s wardroom, Chief’s mess, and enlisted mess. You line up in your assigned mess. Commanding officers and other high ranking individuals (admirals) get a different set-up, especially at sea.
This is a new one on me. It’s positively antebellum, and I’m not using that as a positive descriptor.
That’s kind of the point of some of the training for each level.
In the US, we’d call him or her 1LT. If such a person had that habit, he or she would not rise up the ranks very far and would be out at the end of their obligated service, perhaps even sooner. The lieutenant’s boss, assuming the boss is a competent leader, would counsel the lieutenant before it happened too often. If the looie continues to ignore sound advice–from both below and above–civilian life would be closing in rapidly.
IIRC, Special Forces as an MOS by itself is relatively new. One had to have an MOS already and SF was an additional qualifier. Personally, I think that, given the structure of the SF and the nature of their missions, a separate group of MOS just makes good sense. The Army got that one right.
Well, for the Air Force, the answer is that they don’t have Warrant Officers now. Another bit is that Warrant isn’t typically an entry grade. Physicians lawyers, and nurses have tertiary degrees and it seems only fair to have someone whose military job requires that degree at the entry level to enter at the same grade as others.
That’s a bit tough to answer. The short answer is that the CW5 ranks below the 2LT or ENS. For the US, our officer cadets are not like in (some of) the Commonwealth countries. Our cadets or officer candidates, while getting paid E-5 pay (I think that’s the equivalent pay), are not really in the rank structure as such.
This depends on both the individual and the service concerned. For the Navy, the current enlisted rate had a big bearing on whether one will apply for CWO or for LDO. Another concern is time in service.
Over years, I’ve thought that maybe the US military should try a parallel structure for the ranks. Have the E-1 be at the bottom, but have, say, E6 be considered the same rank as CWO2, which itself is the same rank as O1. Each person would advance in their rank track. Yeah, I know it would need a lot of work and would be cumbersome because you’d really have to expand the number of warrant grades right off the bat.
This part isn’t in response to your post. As career military myself, and also growing up as the child of a career commissioned officer, I’ve always thought that the military salute in the US has been, well, abused. IMHO, it’s fine to have salutes for formal occasions–retirements, morning formations, reporting for pay, reporting for discipline, etc.–but just because you see someone who is a higher rank passing on the street is, again IMHO, just plain silly.
My experience in the Army with warrants was just they were the guys who flew the helos. Always in the right seat and sometimes in the left seat also. I was just a passenger and we had no reason to speak to each other. We’d speak to and with the Crew Chief or the Gunner in back. They had the helmets with headphones and mics and could relay messages to the Pilots.
In the Coast Guard I had dealings with WOs. I was an Electronics Technician there and there were WOs (ET) for the various school sections. And when I was an instructor, my chain of command was CO of the training center, Chief of Electronics Branch (there were other schools at the training center), LORAN School Head (WO-4 (ET)), The School SCPO/MCPO, Section Chief (CPO/SCPO), and then me. Both WOs I served under were pretty nice guys. There was one awkward time when I was outside approaching the entrance of our building (I was a ways off) and Mr. R had stepped out for something and soon I’d be close enough to salute him. He hated all the formal stuff and we had never encountered each other in a saluting situation. He went back inside before I got close enough. In the CG, to be considered for a Warrant, one had to be at least a PO1 (1st Class Petty Officer (E-6) ) and on the promotion list for CPO (Chief Petty Officer (E-7)). I don’t think many Master Chiefs (MCPO (E-9)) went for warrants; Hell, they were considered Gods by E-1s to E-6s anyway. In the field, I came across one WO (ET), he was the Executive Officer at a large LORAN station.
When I was at the school, Warrants were welcome in the Officer’s Club/Mess and in the Chief’s club/Mess. In the Enlisted Men’s Mess, there was a separate dining area for CPOs. I suppose WOs could eat there too. I was a PO2 but a couple times I ate / drank at the Chief’s club as a guest and once I had lunch in the Officer’s Club (one of my students was a Canadian civilian who was given Officer status while a student and invited me and another instructor (PO3) to have lunch with him).
“The Path To Leadership” by Bernard Montgomery (British WWII General), was re-issued many years later (after they were all dead) with the chapter about Churchill and Eisenhower included.
Montgomery thought that Eisenhower was a failure when he took over direct command. Because he did not give orders. Extended the length of the war, and was the cause of Allied deaths.
Possibly reflects a still-existing difference in English and American army culture.