# Are all sex offenders created equal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259 "2006-03-21T06:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/1 "2006-03-21T06:20:30Z")
Does gender play into how teachers who molest students get punsihed? For example, take [Debra Lafave](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debra_Lafave), whose lawyer said she was ‘too pretty to go to jail’. I’ve been hearing some comments about her case and the way she has been treated. It made me ponder if she was male, and loutish, what kind of reaction the public would have to hearing the punishment was three years of house arrest. Also, do you believe that female sex offenders have as difficult of a time estabilshing a residency as male sex offenders? Personally, I feel that many people wouldn’t feel as ‘threatened’ if they knew their neighbor sex offender was a woman. Not that it would totally absolve the ick/disdain of it, but rather just make the person seem less of a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/2 "2006-03-21T07:30:46Z")
For whatever reason a lot of people don’t seem to think that a female teacher having sex with a male student is as harmful as a male student having sex with a female student. For whatever reason gender seems to play an important role in the acceptability of these relationships. I guess there’s still a kind of “wink, wink, nudge, nudge” attitude towards males have sex that isn’t present for females. I’d rather have a female sex offender living near me then a male one. I know sex offender is a broad definition but I don’t know how many women have been convicted of forcible rape. Marc ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/3 "2006-03-21T15:02:40Z")
Earlier thread on same topic: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346127](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346127) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/4 "2006-03-21T22:43:48Z")
See also this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349201](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349201) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/5 "2006-03-22T00:37:45Z")
Public urination can get you listed as a sex offender. I do not consider public urination to be a crime in the same league as forcibly having sex with four year olds. I doubt many do. Therefore, there are different kinds of sex offenders. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/6 "2006-03-22T00:43:11Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Public urination can get you listed as a sex offender. !!! Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/7 "2006-03-22T01:29:55Z")
I don’t have a cite, but I’ve heard from a reputable source that this is true in Massachusetts. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/8 "2006-03-22T06:50:41Z")
For me, what it boils down to right or wrong: (regardin Lafave) Was the kid victimized? My gut feeling tells my no. That’s not to say she shouldn’t get some sort of punishment though. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/9 "2006-03-22T07:25:51Z")
Since the label of “sex offender” is about the same as “communist” during the McCarthy era or “heretic” during the Inquisition, I’d say we as a society NEED TO use far more discretion in deciding who is a sex offender. The victimization of the younger party must be established. I have a really hard time with the idea of a 25 year old being prosecuted for having consensual sex with a fully developed and sexually active teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/10 "2006-03-22T08:12:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! Cite? After some googling, I can’t find a verifiable mention of a named individual who has been forced to register as a sex offender after being caught urinating in public. However, I did find a case from 1973 in which a defendent was permitted to retract a guilty plea to public urination because he had not been advised that a guilty plea would require him to register as a sex offender. From [In re Birch (1973) 10 C3d 314](http://online.ceb.com/CalCases/C3/10C3d314.htm) > [@](#): > > In July 1972 petitioner, James Birch, appeared before the Los Angeles Municipal Court without counsel and entered a plea of guilty to the misdemeanor charge of violating Penal Code section 647, subdivision (a), which proscribes engaging in “… lewd or dissolute conduct in any public place or in any place open to the public or exposed to public view.” > > … > > The record is meagre as to the events which culminated in petitioner’s arrest but, according to petitioner’s allegations, the facts are as follows: At approximately 1:30 a.m. on the morning of July 24, 1972, petitioner and three friends, after having consumed a six-pack of beer, came to the Taco Bell restaurant located at Lassen and Sepulveda in Los Angeles. Although the restaurant was closing for the night, they arrived in time to order some food. Petitioner desired to use the restroom but was informed that it had been cleaned and closed for the night. After returning to his car to eat, he was forced to relieve himself. He left the car and urinated while standing next to the vehicle and facing a retaining wall which was approximately 40 feet from the restaurant and encompassed it on three sides. The parking area was illuminated by one lamp located 50 feet from petitioner. Unknown to him, two police officers sitting in an unmarked car on Lassen Street observed him and proceeded to place him under arrest for lewd and dissolute conduct. > > … > > Petitioner served the five days in jail and, **as a result of the conviction, he must comply with Penal Code section 290 which compels all those who have been convicted of sex offenses, including violation of section 647, subdivision (a), to register as sex offenders.** > > … > > While petitioner possibly might have suspected that a guilty plea could result in a short jail sentence, we cannot believe that he was aware that as a consequence of urinating in a parking lot at 1:30 in the morning he would be required to register as a sex offender. Certainly counsel would have advised him of this grave and direct consequence of his guilty plea; in the absence of counsel the responsibility for such advice rested with the court. Without this advice, we conclude that petitioner’s waiver of counsel and plea of guilty cannot be regarded as having been knowingly and intelligently made. > > Accordingly, petitioner is entitled to have his judgment of conviction set aside. ---
**Author:** ![Gladstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90db22/32.png) [@Gladstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gladstone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/11 "2006-03-22T08:15:16Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Public urination can get you listed as a sex offender. Under W. Va. Code, § 15-12-2, any person who was convicted and the sentencing judge made a written finding that the offense was sexually motivated is also subject to sex offender registration. So, at least in West Virginia, if a judge determines at sentencing that any crime - ranging from public urination or even burglary (as in State v. Whalen, 214 W.Va. 299, 588 S.E.2d 677 (W.Va.,2003)) - had a sexual motive behind it, then onto the sex offender list you go. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/12 "2006-03-22T09:20:57Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > Since the label of “sex offender” is about the same as “communist” during the McCarthy era or “heretic” during the Inquisition, I’d say we as a society NEED TO use far more discretion in deciding who is a sex offender. > > The victimization of the younger party must be established. **I have a really hard time with the idea of a 25 year old being prosecuted for having consensual sex with a fully developed and sexually active teenager.** So we are after all cool with the idea of considering the victim’s sexual history? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/13 "2006-03-22T09:25:20Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > So we are after all cool with the idea of considering the victim’s sexual history? :dubious: If the “victim” is a 15 year old boy with a 26 year old female teacher, or the 17-year-old girlfriend of an 18-year-old, something tells me it’s not John Wayne Gacy we’re dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/14 "2006-03-22T13:10:07Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > If the “victim” is a 15 year old boy with a 26 year old female teacher, or the 17-year-old girlfriend of an 18-year-old, something tells me it’s not John Wayne Gacy we’re dealing with. But what if the victim is horrified of the idea of being identified publicly and being put on the witness stand? I think too many people are minimizing this boy’s feelings based upon their own fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/15 "2006-03-22T13:56:33Z")
> [@KRM](#): > > But what if the victim is horrified of the idea of being identified publicly and being put on the witness stand? I think too many people are minimizing this boy’s feelings based upon their own fantasies. Then we shouldn’t prosecute, problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/16 "2006-03-22T14:40:10Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > For me, what it boils down to right or wrong: (regardin Lafave) > > Was the kid victimized? So it should be legal to maim the masochistic? It should be legal to murder the suicidal? That sends a great message to criminals: make sure your victim is hypothetically willing, because that means their dignity is worth less. Bad precedent to base punishment on the demographics of the victim. Lafave’s sentence is a joke and an insult to both sexes. I’d feel less threatened by her than I would by a male sex offender neighbor, but then, I don’t have a son. ---
**Author:** ![EEMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a6a055/32.png) [@EEMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EEMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/17 "2006-03-22T15:38:00Z")
There are examples of ‘rape’ where the victom was drunk (and thus ‘unable to consent’) or where the victom was presured by an authority figure (and thus unable to consent); but does that really matter? There IS a double standard for women verses men. This woman has been set free (from her SECOND offence) while under probation (the terms of which, it seems were to NOT do such a thing again). It is not only illegal to have sex with anyone of that age (often over looked when both parties are minors, which is NOT the case here), it is WRONG for a teacher to have sex with a student. The fact that this was a ‘boy’ and there for ‘wanted it’ is well, sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Pyrrhonist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pyrrhonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyrrhonist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/18 "2006-03-22T17:01:37Z")
Sure there is a double standards. Always have been, always will be. Reading about other sexual subjects and standards, like the Male Roe v. Wade debacle, reveal that men and women will not be treated equally no matter how much we wish otherwise. I have a very difficult time imagining Lafave as a dangerous sex offender; or, frankly, having engaged in criminal activity anymore egregious than jaywalking. While I suppose it is technically possible for a pretty woman of 25 to sexually victimize a teenage boy of 14, I think there needs to be a strong case for her to have done him a grievous harm. Maybe, just maybe, the boy was a victim of rape, but I doubt it. If the boy was truly victimized, I believe, then it was probably the parents, the law, and the media that turned the situation into circus act for public viewing that victimized him. Lafave, apparently, is “undergoing therapy for bipolar disorder” and is (now?) a [Christian woman.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/21/charges.dropped/index.html) > [@](#): > > She said she was taking a journalism course online, adding, “God has given me a great outlet to write, and I would hope I could reach people through writing.” > > “I am a strong Christian woman,” she said. “I believe that God has a path for me, and this was just a bump in the road.” I find this really a funny thing to say. Who cares what her religious beliefs might be? But then I forget that “criminals” are seemingly obliged to show contrition through psychiatry and Christianity–and express lofty goals for her post-rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/19 "2006-03-22T17:39:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > !!! Cite? California Penal Code Who must register: Sec. 290 (2) The following persons shall be required to register pursuant to paragraph (1): (A) Any person who, since July 1, 1944, has been or is hereafter convicted in any court in this state or in any federal or military court of a violation of Section 207 or 209 committed with intent to violate Section 261, 286, 288, 288a, or 289, Section 220, except assault to commit mayhem, Section 243.4, paragraph (1), (2), (3), (4), or (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 261, or paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 262 involving the use of force or violence for which the person is sentenced to the state prison, Section 264.1, 266, or 266c, subdivision (b) of Section 266h, subdivision (b) of Section 266i, Section 266j, 267, 269, 285, 286, 288, 288a, 288.5, or 289, Section 311.1, subdivision (b), (c), or (d) of Section 311.2, Section 311.3, 311.4, 311.10, 311.11, or 647.6, former Section 647a, subdivision (c) of Section 653f, subdivision 1 or 2 of Section 314, any offense involving lewd or lascivious conduct under Section 272, or any felony violation of Section 288.2; or any statutory predecessor that includes all elements of one of the above-mentioned offenses; or any person who since that date has been or is hereafter convicted of the attempt to commit any of the above-mentioned offenses. What people are charged with for public urination: 1. Every person who willfully and lewdly, either: 1. Exposes his person, or the private parts thereof, in any public place, or in any place where there are present other persons to be offended or annoyed thereby; or, 2. Procures, counsels, or assists any person so to expose himself or take part in any model artist exhibition, or to make any other exhibition of himself to public view, or the view of any number of persons, such as is offensive to decency, or is adapted to excite to vicious or lewd thoughts or acts, is guilty of a misdemeanor. At least people in California have been made to register for public urination. Granted a good attorney could probably help avoid conviction under 314, but many people without attorneys plead to it and are forced to register. District attorneys over charge, and usually don’t give a shit if somebody is forced to register for stupid things like pissing outside. I recall a highschool kid who was convicted of a 314 violation for mooning people at a highschool football game and was forced to register as a sex offender for life. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259/20 "2006-03-23T03:23:17Z")
> [@KRM](#): > > But what if the victim is horrified of the idea of being identified publicly and being put on the witness stand? That’s one possibility. On the other hand, what if he doesn’t want to testify against her because he doesn’t think she did anything wrong? > [@davenportavenger](#): > > So it should be legal to maim the masochistic? It should be legal to murder the suicidal? Yes! If the “victim” is willing, he isn’t a victim at all. Why should someone be locked up for a _consensual_ act? Look at boxing, for instance. If you punch a stranger on the street, you’re a thug. If you punch someone in the boxing ring, you’re just an athlete. The key difference is that he climbed into the ring willingly to fight you. > [@](#): > > That sends a great message to criminals: make sure your victim is hypothetically willing, because that means their dignity is worth less. Er, actually, the message it sends is “make sure you get permission before touching someone”, which sounds fine to me. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-sex-offenders-created-equal/349259.md?page=2)