# Are all terrorists Musims today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2007, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642 "2007-07-21T06:48:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/61 "2007-07-22T04:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=Haunted] I don’t want to highjack the thread but I would be interested in finding out more about what would be the best way to characterize the CIA. [/QUOTE] I find “bastards” works pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/62 "2007-07-22T04:12:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Terrorism is simply an act in which the prime or one of the important goals is to cause terror. War involves a lot of causing terror, but usually that isn’t the prime concern; you scare the enemy by killing them off, but the goal there is mainly the killing rather than the fear (though that’s a helpful side effect). I disagree. There are a few “terrorists” who are really more like serial killers: people who kill for the sake of killing. But there are no terrorist groups like this (outside of a few cults where the membership is essentially an extension of one individual’s personality). Terrorist groups have a specific goal and are using terror as a means to achieve that goal. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/63 "2007-07-22T04:32:06Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But there are a few and Christians have shown they can use terrorism just like anyone else. [/QUOTE] I would enjoy a cite or a one word hint if you have the inclination. All I could come up on my own with was very sporadic history of rare firebombing of abortion clinics and killing abortion doctors/staff in the name of… errr…ahhh… well, in the spirit of… ummmm…geez… well, because a few individuals chose to ignore the spirit and directive of the very teachings that for some disconnected reason eventually sent them on their _individual_ crusades for reasons I cannot connect to their initial indoctrination. I am open to learn more about how Christians have shown they can use terrorism in today’s day and age. I was terrorized\* once by a white bearded, vacant-eyed fanatic when entering an abortion clinic in my youth and it is an experience I will never forget. I know fanaticism exists and I know the type. I wish to learn more. - The terror consisted of the fact that a detail cop was watching us and I could not do anything but get defensively tense and standoffish until the cop hassled him for impeding my movement. I would have footswept the freak if there was no cop looking. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/64 "2007-07-22T04:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I disagree. There are a few “terrorists” who are really more like serial killers: people who kill for the sake of killing. But there are no terrorist groups like this (outside of a few cults where the membership is essentially an extension of one individual’s personality). Terrorist groups have a specific goal and are using terror as a means to achieve that goal. [/QUOTE] I would say that those specific people aren’t terrorists, then. Their goal is the killing; the terror is a side-effect. If you’re talking about such people being part of an overall group which does have terror as a goal… mm, i’d still say they weren’t themselves terrorists. OTOH, an organisation using people who kill for the sake of killing as part of their goals would certainly be using terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/65 "2007-07-22T04:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=bob\_co] So now we are getting somwhere. If we took those 500 Americans out of Saud, then 9/11 wouldn’t have happened? . [/QUOTE] We’d also have to let them kill all the Jews. And convert out good ally Turkey to a religous Muslim state, instead of a secular, modern, westen muslim state. This could only occur by killing lots of Turks. And even with all that we’d _still_ be “the Great Satan” to be loathed and hated. In other words, no; there is no sane way to deal with terrorists as they are insane. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/66 "2007-07-22T05:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] In other words, no; there is no sane way to deal with terrorists as they are insane. [/QUOTE] Terrorists aren’t inherantly insane, anymore than the school bully who threatens to beat you up if you don’t give him your lunch money is insane. They’ve just decided that spreading fear is the best or the only way to accomplish their goals. In al Qaeda’s case, some of these goals aren’t very realistic, but… ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/67 "2007-07-22T05:38:10Z")
[The CIA as a Terrorist Organization](http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_terr.html) There are those who see the CIA as a terrorist organization. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/68 "2007-07-22T05:40:31Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You don’t see many Christian terrorist groups because there’s relatively few situations in the world where there are Christian populations being oppressed. [/QUOTE] :eek: :eek: :eek: First of all, you should pay a bit more attention. There are more places on Earth where Christians are oppressed (in a variety of imaginative ways) than where Christians _are not_ oppressed, it seems. The reason, my friend, that there aren’t many Christian terrorist groups is that Christians are oppressed mostly in places where they do not form significant and coherent ethnic/political groups; in most senses, Christianity is not a cultural movement. (No, as a Christian I will not deny that Christians can do some nasty shit in the right circumstances.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/69 "2007-07-22T05:44:56Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] I am open to learn more about how Christians have shown they can use terrorism in today’s day and age. [/QUOTE] Do you mean Christianity as an ideology or Christians as individuals? Individuals are easy enough to find. For example Chris Benedict, a Palestinian Christian ( or at least from a Christian family, can’t speak to his own reigiosity ) who was recently arrested for organizing and supporting several terrorist actions, including suicide bombings, for **Tanzim** , a militant wing of Fatah. Ideologically Christian terrorists ( i.e. those that carry out terrorism based in part on religious motivation ) are comparatively rare, but not entirely unknown. The aforementioned **Lord’s Resistance Army** is probably more Christian-based than anything else, though of a rather syncretic mien. Slightly more clearcut are the loosely associated hate groups in the **Christian Identity Movement** , who believe in a coming Armageddon in race-war themed terms. Though it is hard to label them as a coherent organization per se ( or even an organization at all ), they fall into the American abortion-clinic bombing, synagogue-burning, gay-bashing wackadoo demographic. But the best analog to certain Islamist terrorist groups is undoubtedly **Boermag** , the “Afrikaner al Qaeda.” Like the Christian Identity Movement they use Christian doctrine, in this case the old racist ideology of the Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa, to support their notions of white supremacism. But unlike the CIM, they are an actual organization that carries out irregular bombing campaigns hoping to spark a race war in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/70 "2007-07-22T06:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] And I don’t think Timothy McVeigh was moslem! [/QUOTE] Yep, neither these guys: > **[The terror threat at home, often overlooked](https://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html)** > > As the media focus on international terror, a Texan pleads guilty to possessing a weapon of mass destruction. > [@](#): > > HOUSTON – It began as a misdelivered envelope and developed into the most extensive domestic terrorism investigation since the Oklahoma City bombing. > Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist and antigovernment literature. > > “Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal,” says Daniel Levitas, author of “The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia Movement and the Radical Right.” > > But outside Tyler, Texas, the case is almost unknown. In the past nine months, there have been two government press releases and a handful of local stories, but no press conference and no coverage in the national newspapers. > [@](#): > > The fact is, the number of domestic terrorist acts in the past five years far outweighs the number of international acts, says Mark Pitcavage of the fact-finding department at the Anti-Defamation League. “We do have home-grown hate in the United States, people who are just as ill-disposed to the American government as any international terrorist group,” he says. > > Levitas estimates that there are approximately 25,000 right-wing extremist members and activists and some 250,000 sympathizers. The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 708 hate groups in 2002. > > While Mr. Pitcavage was surprised the Krar case did not receive more attention, “It is a fact that a lot of stories involving domestic extremists get undercovered,” he says. He points to a case he calls one of “the major terrorist plots of the 1990s” in which militia from around the country converged in central Texas allegedly to attack a military base. They were arrested at a campground near Fort Hood on the morning of July 4, 1997, with a large collection of weapons and explosives. “There was virtually no media coverage of that incident either,” says Pitcavage. > > Featherston speculates that the Krar case got little attention because the arrests were made just after the war began in Iraq. “Excuse me, a chemical weapon was found in the home state of George Bush,” says Levitas. “I’m not saying the Justice Department deliberately decided to downplay the story because they thought it might be embarrassing to the US government if weapons of mass destruction were found in America before they were found in Iraq. But I am saying it was a mistake not to give this higher profile.” ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/71 "2007-07-22T06:25:39Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] Individuals are easy enough to find…Ideologically Christian terrorists ( i.e. those that carry out terrorism based in part on religious motivation ) are comparatively rare, but not entirely unknown. [/quote] I agree. The Christian terrorists I have observed seem to be defective loose cannons that for some reason spaz out and have little to do with any organized movement, although once in a great while a pocket of activity will pop up in North America. > [@](#): > > The aforementioned **Lord’s Resistance Army** is probably more Christian-based than anything else, though of a rather syncretic mien. Christian-tinged is my take, not Christian-based. the Ten Commandments are not a Christian invention but the leader of the LRA _does_ use some Christ in his schtick, albeit in one of the most warped ways I have ever come across… (YMMV on the source but corroboration is plentiful and sometimes worse) > **[Deliver Us from Joseph Kony - Christianity Today](https://www.christianitytoday.com/2006/01/deliver-us-from-joseph-kony/)** > > Why the children of Uganda are killing one another in the name of the Lord. — Kony, 41, envisions an Acholiland ruled by a warped interpretation of the Ten Commandments. He uses passages from the Pentateuch to justify mutilation and murder. He promotes a demonic spirituality crafted from an eclectic mix of Christianity, Islam, and African witchcraft. Any resemblance to these religions is superficial: While the army observes rituals such as praying the rosary and bowing toward Mecca, there is no prescribed theology in the conventional sense. Kony’s beliefs are a haphazard mix from the Bible and the Qur’an, tailored around his wishful thinking, personal desires, and practical needs of the moment. Jesus is the Son of God. But instead of saving the world from sin through his sacrificial love on the Cross, he is a source of power employed for killing those who oppose Kony. The Holy Spirit is not the Divine Comforter, but one who directs Kony’s tactical military decisions. Despite dabbling in the Bible and the Qur’an, Kony’s real spiritual obsession is witchcraft. He burns toy military vehicles and figurines to predict the course of battles from their burn patterns. He uses reptiles in magic rituals to sicken those who anger him or to detect traitors in his midst. He claims to receive military direction from spirits of dead men from different countries, including Americans. He teaches that an impending apocalypse will usher in “The Silent World,” where only primitive weapons, such as machetes and clubs, will bring victory. — That is NOT Christian based, IMHO. By defintion, Christian-based would entail turning the other cheek. > [@](#): > > Slightly more clearcut are the loosely associated hate groups in the **Christian Identity Movement** , who believe in a coming Armageddon in race-war themed terms. Though it is hard to label them as a coherent organization per se ( or even an organization at all ), they fall into the American abortion-clinic bombing, synagogue-burning, gay-bashing wackadoo demographic. Synagogue burning? I almost laughed at that as I would laugh at the mention of some “recent lynchings”, but a synagogue was torched in NY a few months ago. It was an anti-Zionist synagogue (never let it be said that SD is not a horizon-broadening arena). Wackadoo designation to be sure, but true and real. > [@](#): > > But the best analog to certain Islamist terrorist groups is undoubtedly **Boermag** , the “Afrikaner al Qaeda.” Like the Christian Identity Movement they use Christian doctrine, in this case the old racist ideology of the Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa, to support their notions of white supremacism. But unlike the CIM, they are an actual organization that carries out irregular bombing campaigns hoping to spark a race war in South Africa. Paydirt! Now _that_ is the gap in my mind that was awaiting some filling. I am off to teh Googles to learn more. I thank you for the excellent presentation and honest writings on such a hot topic. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/72 "2007-07-22T06:39:46Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] That is NOT Christian based, IMHO. By defintion, Christian-based would entail turning the other cheek. [/QUOTE] Ideally, yes, but realistically, not all Christians follow that philosophy. Regardless, the Lord’s Resistance Army isn’t Christian by any realistic definition of the word (other than wishful thinking, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/73 "2007-07-22T10:45:59Z")
Naxalites in India, they’re revolutionary communist land reformers. The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka. The Kayin, Mon and Shan people in Myanmar. The last remenants of Khmer Rouge in Cambodia (they’ve been quite awhile, but they’re still around) There are Muslims fighting for a caliphite in southern Thailand, but they aren’t Arabs. You say terrorist, they say guerrilla freedom fighters. There are plenty in Africa also, but can’t be arsed to look them up. ---
**Author:** ![Haunted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/898d66/32.png) [@Haunted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haunted)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/74 "2007-07-22T11:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Featherston speculates that the Krar case got little attention because the arrests were made just after the war began in Iraq. “Excuse me, a chemical weapon was found in the home state of George Bush,” says Levitas. “I’m not saying the Justice Department deliberately decided to downplay the story because they thought it might be embarrassing to the US government if weapons of mass destruction were found in America before they were found in Iraq. But I am saying it was a mistake not to give this higher profile.” I think all that stuff you posted was really interesting, **GIGObuster**. It’s just fascinating that nobody seems to want to talk about what are apparently a lot of domestic terrorist threats. I guess it’s because it doesn’t fit in with the concept of “US GOOD,” “EVILDOERS OVER THERE!” I bet most people do think that our biggest problem is muslim terrorists. The propaganda machine is working. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/75 "2007-07-22T11:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=Haunted] I think all that stuff you posted was really interesting, **GIGObuster**. It’s just fascinating that nobody seems to want to talk about what are apparently a lot of domestic terrorist threats. I guess it’s because it doesn’t fit in with the concept of “US GOOD,” “EVILDOERS OVER THERE!” [/QUOTE] I expect much of the problem is that we have right wing terrorists, a mostly right wing media, and a right wing government. With a government more concerned with harassing the ACLU or the Democrats than keeping tabs on militia fanatics and such, and a media slanted right, of course we don’t hear much. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/76 "2007-07-22T12:38:44Z")
[QUOTE=bob\_co] My assumption that I am seeking to test is that the Muslim religion is the only entity out there killing civilians and trying to convert the whole world to their beliefs by random acts of violence. [/QUOTE] And you will only succeed by rejecting any definition of terrorism that disproves your assumption. That’s no way to go through life, son. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/77 "2007-07-22T12:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=straight man] Ideally, yes, but realistically, not all Christians follow that philosophy. Regardless, the Lord’s Resistance Army isn’t Christian by any realistic definition of the word (other than wishful thinking, of course.) [/QUOTE] And not all Moslems (and almost no Musims) subscribe to the ideology of those Moslems that practice terrorism: Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO, Qaeda… I think the fair thing to do is either accept all terrorist religiosity as claimed by the terrorists themselves or else strike one Moslem group from the list for every disqualified Christian group. I’m being facetious here, of course, and Moslem terrorists might be closer to one ideal of Islam than the Christian terrorists to any ideal of Christianity. But Moslems should be no more made to share in the ignominy of their putative co-religionists than Christians should be tainted with abortion clinic bombings etc. Yet it seems to “stick” to Islam moreso. In the US, we get our news from largely non-Islamic sources that stem from and/or are controlled by people descended from Judeo-Christian heritage. That’s a tough lens to regrind. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/78 "2007-07-23T01:14:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I would enjoy a cite or a one word hint if you have the inclination. I mentioned several in my first post: God’s Army in Myanmar, Bodo and Tripuran seperatists in India, and Oromo seperatists in Ethiopia are all based in Christian societies living in a majority non-Christian nation. And while people can debate the term, the Lord’s Resistance Army calls itself Christian. And I mentioned other groups like the Democratic Forces for the Liberation of Rwanda, the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia, the New People’s Army in the Philipines and the Sendero Luminoso in Peru which are non-religious in their ideology but are composed of people who happen to be Christians. And if we include groups that are not currently active we have various Armenian, Basque, Cypriot Greek, Irish, Lebanese, and Quebecois groups. > [@](#): > > First of all, you should pay a bit more attention. There are more places on Earth where Christians are oppressed (in a variety of imaginative ways) than where Christians are not oppressed, it seems. I’m guessing you probably are leaving a lot unsaid in this post. Could you expand on how Christians are being oppressed throughout the world? ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/79 "2007-07-23T01:45:51Z")
For the record, the second quote in Nemo’s post is not mine. [QUOTE=Little Nemo] I mentioned several in my first post: God’s Army in Myanmar, [/quote] Whoa.. hold up, hold up. Is this a cosmic joke? (Not on your part, Little Nemo) This is worse than an Onion article… > **[Client Challenge](https://www.seattlepi.com/national/thai23.shtml)** Those are the leaders of God’s army before the army was disbanded in 2001. Weird. Thanks for the rest. Interesting reading, but the term “vaguely based” is present in Wiki write-ups of two of the ones you supplied and I am left wondering why Christianity was even used as a base at all since not only are the tactics used non-Christian, but the rituals are beyond bizarre. Once again, very interesting reading and very thought provoking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642/80 "2007-07-23T02:47:45Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] I am open to learn more about how Christians have shown they can use terrorism in today’s day and age. [/QUOTE] I realize that it has been (thankfully) almost ten years since most of them have stopped being active, but well within “today’s. . .age” are the IRA and a whole bunch of smaller groups that include a “U” in their TLA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-terrorists-musims-today/412642.md?page=5)