# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/202 "2017-11-16T03:37:12Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > There is new research that indicates the lack of any structural differences between a “male brain” and a female brain" — which has implications for trans people and cis people as well. I’ll be blogging on that theme on Monday. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Thanks for the IMHO post, and I read [the article](http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.full) you were blogging about. I think your one-sentence summary may be slightly misleading about the actual findings of the article, which says in the last sentence of the abstract: > > In other words, although sex-based structural differences in the brain are variable enough to preclude categorizing brains with a simple binary classification, they do exist. The article continues: > > Judging from the links at the bottom of that page, this is part of an ongoing debate about whether brain sex/gender differences warrant using a binary “female vs. male” brain classification system. Nobody’s disputing the existence of documented sex/gender brain differences in themselves. Is that the same study as [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/can-you-tell-which-brains-are-male-neither-can-these-n471751)? > [@](#): > > Anywhere between 23 percent and 53 percent of the MRIs had at least one region with a “male-end” score **and** one region with a “female-end” score, they found. And at the most, 8 percent of the brain scans showed someone whose brain regions all scored “male” or “female.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/203 "2017-11-16T03:40:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I can certainly judge you for failing to reveal this to someone you want to get romantically involved with. And I can certainly judge you for that attitude. Doin’ it right now, as a matter of fact. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/204 "2017-11-16T04:07:03Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I told you that your post wasn’t clear. That’s the issue; your post was unclear. What is unclear about it? Seems straight forward to me. If I’m on Craigslist and looking in the “W4M” section I assume that the person is a gender-typical woman. If not, I would think she would be posting in the “T4M” section. Not really hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/205 "2017-11-16T06:18:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What is unclear about it? Seems straight forward to me. If I’m on Craigslist and looking in the “W4M” section I assume that the person is a gender-typical woman. If not, I would think she would be posting in the “T4M” section. Not really hard to understand. I think the term you’re looking for is “cisgender”. Correct? (FWIW, I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone as transphobic if they’re not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It’s a complex issue – I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn’t date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn’t date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/206 "2017-11-16T06:43:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, but I used “gender-typical woman” with a hyphen that you failed to quote properly. Gender-typical means someone whose gender matches their sex. The word you’re looking for is cisgender, as **Una** and **Guinastasia** said. Cisgender is a biological thing; gender-typical is social and varies depending on where you are and in whose company. I’m cisgender, but merely having an engineering degree already makes me gender-atypical. My clothing and social behavior fit the prejudice-set “engineer” a lot better than the prejudice-set “female”. My musical tastes fit the prejudice-set “gamer” much better than the prejudice-set “female”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/207 "2017-11-16T11:49:35Z")
Since no one seems to have answered this… > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What is FUD? [Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt). > [@andylongino](#): > > People who have same-sex partners and people who change their sex there is something not natural about this. About all this gays getting married more power to them. How can I hurt straight people. I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I won’t be allowed to adopt only in to a natural light and varmin I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I will be allowed to adopt only in to a natural like environment. I mean a man and a woman that I think should be married and that cannot have children or just wants to help should be able to do so. Can people of the same sex that is married should not at all be able to adopt for the child sake. They gave up that right of having children when they decided to get same-sex partners. I think I speak for most of the people in this thread when I say: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/208 "2017-11-16T14:09:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Efficiency’s not the crucial issue here. Other people’s obligations to make pre-emptive announcements about their personal lives are not dependent on what you consider to be “the most efficient way of avoiding bad matches”. > > \*\*Your artificial social-utilitarian ideals of dating efficiency do not override other people’s ethical right to choose for themselves what personal information they want to announce in their dating profiles. > > Nor do they eliminate the fundamental ethical obligation of grownups to take responsibility for telling potential dating partners what their own dating requirements are.\*\* There is nothing artificial about them. These are basic concepts and writing things in bold don’t make your words any less silly. Ethics is largely driven social utilitarianism. I’m not saying that anyone MUST divulge their transgender status in dating profiles (not even really sure what dating profiles are, do these websites ask you if you have a preference for not dating transgender folks? Is there a little box you can check? > [@](#): > > Doesn’t matter, either for transgender or for any other of the numerous rare characteristics that most people don’t want in a dating partner. For example, less than 1% of people in the US are HIV+, too, and lots of HIV- people don’t want to date somebody HIV+. And I think HIV+ people should be upfront about that too. > [@](#): > > That still doesn’t make it the responsibility of HIV+ people to announce their status to potential dating partners right away. It’s not about the statistical numbers or made-up rationales concerning “efficiency” or “cost”. It’s about the moral right of individuals to decide for themselves what personal information to reveal to strangers. And there are more honest ways of exercising that right and less honest ways of exercising that right. > [@](#): > > So what? Other people are not responsible for guessing what your crucial dating requirements might be just because you can’t be bothered to bear them in mind yourself. > > If it’s so important to you not to date transgender women, it’s up to you to remember that fact and regulate your own dating behavior accordingly. Your issue, your responsibility. Nope, you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/209 "2017-11-16T14:10:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No one has to declare anything – by not declaring that they’re trans, a trans person is accepting the risk that their date may feel angry or disappointed in the future if the relationship develops to the extent that they reveal it. Many may decide that this risk is less dangerous than revealing it from the start. And by not declaring that someone doesn’t want to date a trans person, a cis person is accepting the risk that they may find out later that the person they’re dating is trans, and thus might be angry or disappointed. > > Thus goes dating. Dating can result in anger or disappointment or lots of other things. Sure, people are dishonest in relationships all the time and this frequently leads to anger and disappointment. I’m not trying to outlaw dishonesty in relationships. I am combatting the notion that there is nothing wrong with this dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/210 "2017-11-16T14:20:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Poison ivy is literally a non-food-approved **poison** which it is **illegal** to put in foods (and in some places illegal even to burn in the open air). Comparing that with transgender status is ridiculous. You brought up the allergy issue. I was looking for something that ~80% (but not all) people are allergic to, that is also uncommon. So I picked poison ivy in an urban environment. If you can think of another thing that ~80% of people are allergic to but is rarely encountered, I would be happy to substitute that for poison ivy. So in summation, the use of poison ivy in an urban environment is in fact very appropriate if you are going to use allergy as an analogy for aversion to transgender dating. When the allergy is rare and the allergen is common then it is up to the allergic person to be careful. When the allergy is incredibly common and the allergen is rare then it is up to the person introducing the allergen to provide notice of the presence of the allergen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/211 "2017-11-16T14:29:05Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Perhaps there’s a moral burden on cisgender men to take the initiative and be open and honest, forthright even, about their dislike, disapproval, or hatred of us in dating situations. Perhaps because the killer in almost all cases where a transgender woman is murdered is a cisgender man. > > Or maybe cisgender men could actively police themselves, and teach each other not to murder people like me. > > Naw, wouldn’t work. > > So let’s consider something else. > > If a cisgender person politely and reasonably preemptively outs themselves as not wanting to be with a transgender woman, the absolute worst that happens to them is some people might think a little less of them. Maybe. Whereas if a transgender person preemptively outs themselves in that same situation, they suddenly have painted a giant target for abuse, harassment, assault, and worse upon themselves. Is the peril equal in this situation? Doesn’t seem that way to me. > > Or let’s consider something else. > > The cisgender person is merely preemptively disclosing an opinion on compatibility of a mate. Whereas the transgender person must preemptively disclose personal and almost certainly painful medical information. Don’t even pretend like the two should have an equal level of expected privacy. This is a good point. The burden of disclosure is not the same for the transgender as it is for everyone else. They have to be much more careful about who they disclose to because they can be subjected to violence. I don’t know if “coming out” for gays was ever as bad as it is for transgender today but I recall a lot of gay bashing when I was a kid. But that is where the burden lays. If you don’t want to be dishonest, you have to be upfront. Perhaps this means you have to spend a lot more time feeling someone out than the rest of us do. Perhaps you can’t go out with someone you just met spontaneously as easily as the rest of us. I don’t think failure to be upfront makes you evil or immoral but it is a bit of dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/212 "2017-11-16T14:35:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And I can certainly judge you for that attitude. > > Doin’ it right now, as a matter of fact. Meh. Less than 20% of people are going to disagree with me and 80%+ are going to agree with me. You can’t make every kneejerk liberal (or conservative) happy, you shouldn’t even try. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/213 "2017-11-16T14:36:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think the term you’re looking for is “cisgender”. Correct? > > (FWIW, I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone as transphobic if they’re not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It’s a complex issue – I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn’t date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn’t date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.) 80%+ of the population is transphobic? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/214 "2017-11-16T14:49:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Since no one seems to have answered this… > > [Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt). > > I think I speak for most of the people in this thread when I say: 😕 There is certainly a lot of xenophobia associated with how we react to transgender. Our attitudes towards the gay community have largely changed because so many gay folks are “out” and we know them and work with them and are related to them. It took a while. People used to get disowned and beaten up and fired for being gay. Now we have three gay teachers at my kid’s elementary school, several conspicuously gay lawyers at work, and gay cops on the beat. We are cool with them getting married and we are cool with them adopting kids. It didn’t happen overnight and we’re not all the way there. But, at some point it was no longer OK to beat up gays and they started coming out and then we started seeing them as people and not just sexual orientations. I don’t know how we get from here to there with transgender but dishonesty does not seem to me to be the best path. But I am pretty sure that there isn’t some sort of conspiracy to promote xenophobia against transgender, its been there all along and we are slowly but surely learning more and more and starting to identify transgender people as more than their transgender status. There once was a time when all you knew about someone was that they were black and you felt you knew all you needed to know. Same with Asians and then gays. Eventually we started to see them as complete people and not just this one label. Hopefully we get there with the transgender folks too but dishonesty won’t get us there faster. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/215 "2017-11-16T14:59:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think the term you’re looking for is “cisgender”. Correct? No, I am not. > [@](#): > > (FWIW, I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone as transphobic if they’re not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It’s a complex issue – I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn’t date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn’t date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.) Of course it’s not fair. Especially when someone wouldn’t be open to dating a transgender person not because they are transgender, but because they do not have the anatomy that someone is looking for in a date. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/216 "2017-11-16T15:10:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But I am pretty sure that there isn’t some sort of conspiracy to promote xenophobia against transgender, its been there all along and we are slowly but surely learning more and more and starting to identify transgender people as more than their transgender status. While much of the negative reaction to transgender people is not the result of an active conspiracy to promote xenophobia against them, there most certainly \*are \*multiple campaigns intended to stir up FUD and hatred against them (see, most notably, the various “bathroom bill” campaigns and associated bigotry). The Overton Window is moving in the right direction but only because those seeking to improve the lot of transgender people have learned the hard way that they can never stop pushing or else the people pushing the other way will immediately regain all the ground they’ve recently lost. On the dating front, I do think it unreasonable to force transgendered people to announce everything before the first date like some form of legal disclosure. Likewise, however, I think it unreasonable to not have mentioned it by the tenth date either. Somewhere in the middle is a…well, if not a happy medium, then at least a tolerable one. And of course disclosure should happen before any physical intimacy is attempted (and IMHO I’m going to include kissing in this category). But that’s just, like, my opinion, man. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/217 "2017-11-16T15:15:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No, I am not. The opposite of transgender is cisgender, not gender-typical. Of course if you’re the new Lord of the Dictionary excuse us for not having received the memo. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/218 "2017-11-16T15:19:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The opposite of transgender is cisgender, not gender-typical. Of course if you’re the new Lord of the Dictionary excuse us for not having received the memo. You can use whatever words you want. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/219 "2017-11-16T15:45:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But that is where the burden lays. No, it doesn’t. You have arbitrarily decided to make up a specious social-utilitarian argument for transferring the “burden” of transgender-dating avoidance from the people who want to avoid dating transgender people (which is where that burden rightfully belongs) to transgender people themselves. A more meaningful and consistent ethical analysis, which doesn’t depend on transitory statistics about current social attitudes, says that the person who wants to avoid a particular outcome is the one responsible for taking the necessary steps to avoid it. Nobody else is ethically obligated to statistically predict what your probable wishes might be without your telling them. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you don’t want to be dishonest, you have to be upfront. There is nothing “dishonest” about not being immediately “upfront” about either being transgender or wanting to avoid dating transgender people. But if you’re **not** immediately upfront about it, then that means you may spend some time dating somebody before finding out that they’re unsuitable for you, because one of you is transgender and the other person doesn’t want to date somebody transgender. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that either: disappointing discoveries are just part of dating. What is wrong is whining that the other person is at fault for not having spared you the disappointment by immediately telling you that fact about themselves. Nope. If you want to be spared eventual disappointment in dating, whether it’s about transgender, transphobia or any other possible characteristic that a potential date might have, it’s on you to clear the air right at the beginning by explicitly making your requirements known. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/220 "2017-11-16T16:15:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > While much of the negative reaction to transgender people is not the result of an active conspiracy to promote xenophobia against them, there most certainly \*are \*multiple campaigns intended to stir up FUD and hatred against them (see, most notably, the various “bathroom bill” campaigns and associated bigotry). The Overton Window is moving in the right direction but only because those seeking to improve the lot of transgender people have learned the hard way that they can never stop pushing or else the people pushing the other way will immediately regain all the ground they’ve recently lost. I see things differently. I think its the bathroom bills that are moving the overton window. 80%+ of people don’t want to date transgender but almost 60% of people disagree with bathroom bills and that is changing the way we see the transgender. Heck almost half of Republicans are against bathroom bills. And 85% of folks don’t even have a friend or family member that is transgender. Imagine the percentage when they find out that there are people in their community and in their families that are transgender. > **[The first major poll on ‘bathroom bills’ is good news for transgender advocates](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/05/10/the-first-major-poll-on-bathroom-bills-is-here-and-its-good-news-for-transgender-advocates/?utm_term=.ced79351942c)** > > A clear majority of Americans don't agree with bathroom bills -- including almost half of Republicans But we always risk getting ahead of the overton window and becoming politically unacceptable when we push things. The people who supported gay marriage when it was “leave them alone, they’re not bothering anyone” are less supportive now that there are lawsuits attempting to force people to supply cakes and flowers to their wedding. You risk losing traction when you push too hard. > [@](#): > > On the dating front, I do think it unreasonable to force transgendered people to announce everything before the first date like some form of legal disclosure. Likewise, however, I think it unreasonable to not have mentioned it by the tenth date either. Somewhere in the middle is a…well, if not a happy medium, then at least a tolerable one. And of course disclosure should happen before any physical intimacy is attempted (and IMHO I’m going to include kissing in this category). > > But that’s just, like, my opinion, man. I wouldn’t “force” anything but I feel its dishonest if you deliberately withhold that information. But that’s just my opinion too. I base my opinion on statistics and utilitarian arguments but its still just my opinion. But in a democracy, opinions count and no amount of “ooh, I’m judging you (and the other 80% of Americans) for not thinking like I do” is going to change those numbers. We don’t give enough of a shit about your opinion of us, we stopped caring about those sort of opinions after the first two years of high school. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/221 "2017-11-16T16:23:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, it doesn’t. You have arbitrarily decided to make up a specious social-utilitarian argument for transferring the “burden” of transgender-dating avoidance from the people who want to avoid dating transgender people (which is where that burden rightfully belongs) to transgender people themselves. Yes it does. You have arbitrarily decided to ignore a long established sound utilitarian argument for transferring the “burden” of transgender dating avoidance from the transgender people (where the burden rightfully belongs) to the non-transgender people who are innocent bystanders in a world where transgender folks who can pass account for less than 0.5% of the dating population and where over 80% of folks don’t want to date that 0.5%. > [@](#): > > A more meaningful and consistent ethical analysis, which doesn’t depend on transitory statistics about current social attitudes, says that the person who wants to avoid a particular outcome is the one responsible for taking the necessary steps to avoid it. Nobody else is ethically obligated to statistically predict what your probable wishes might be without your telling them. That is of course hogwash. You should throw it out. It stinks. Just like you shouldn’t put poison ivy in a salad without telling people even though some people would be OK with eating poison ivy. > [@](#): > > There is nothing “dishonest” about not being immediately “upfront” about either being transgender or wanting to avoid dating transgender people. Except for the fact that the transgender person knows that the overwhelming majority of people don’t want to date transgender people and decides not to share that information. > [@](#): > > But if you’re **not** immediately upfront about it, then that means you may spend some time dating somebody before finding out that they’re unsuitable for you, because one of you is transgender and the other person doesn’t want to date somebody transgender. > > There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that either: disappointing discoveries are just part of dating. What is wrong is whining that the other person is at fault for not having spared you the disappointment by immediately telling you that fact about themselves. > > Nope. If you want to be spared eventual disappointment in dating, whether it’s about transgender, transphobia or any other possible characteristic that a potential date might have, it’s on you to clear the air right at the beginning by explicitly making your requirements known. Nope, its dishonest regardless of how you rationalize it. Its not the end of the world, but its dishonest. Plenty of relationships crater over dishonesty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=12)