# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/262 "2017-11-17T03:57:18Z")
You said you would not date at transwoman. You didn’t qualify that, so the rest of us assumed that was any transwoman at all, not that you were OK with post-op transwomen. That’s sort of why we’re encouraging to use words and phrasing other people are unlikely to misunderstand. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/263 "2017-11-17T04:06:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You said you would not date at transwoman. You didn’t qualify that, so the rest of us assumed that was any transwoman at all, not that you were OK with post-op transwomen I’m pretty sure someone, maybe you, said that people shouldn’t assume what other people are thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/264 "2017-11-17T04:26:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > A transgender woman who has had bottom surgery and presents as an attractive woman is indistinguishable from a gender-typical woman. Why wouldn’t I date someone like that? Okay, I now see why you want to state your criterion on your dating profile as “gender-typical” instead of “not transgender”. But I still think it comes across as confusing. What you seem to really mean is “somebody with female anatomy, either original equipment or custom-built”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/265 "2017-11-17T04:30:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Okay, I now see why you want to state your criterion on your dating profile as “gender-typical” instead of “not transgender”. > > But I still think it comes across as confusing. What you seem to really mean is “somebody with female anatomy, either original equipment or custom-built”. Yes. And as a man, I would surmise that most men feel the same way. Which is why I’m not sure there is confusion when a man doesn’t want a second date with someone who doesn’t have “original equipment” or “custom-built” equipment as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/266 "2017-11-17T04:40:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And as a man, I would surmise that most men feel the same way. Which is why I’m not sure there is confusion when a man doesn’t want a second date with someone who doesn’t have “original equipment” or “custom-built” equipment as you put it. I never said there was anything confusing about the fact that most straight men don’t want to have sex with somebody who has a penis. What I said was that I think it’s a bit confusing for you to use the term “gender-typical” when what you mean is essentially _“either female-assigned at birth or else somebody I couldn’t tell apart from somebody who was female-assigned at birth”_. I understand that you are using the term “gender-typical” in the sense of “someone whose anatomy is typical of the gender that they identify and present as”. I’m just saying that a lot of people wouldn’t immediately know to interpret that term in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/267 "2017-11-17T04:46:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I never said there was anything confusing about the fact that most straight men don’t want to have sex with somebody who has a penis. What I said was that I think it’s a bit confusing for you to use the term “gender-typical” when what you mean is essentially _“either female-assigned at birth or else somebody I couldn’t tell apart from somebody who was female-assigned at birth”_. > > I understand that you are using the term “gender-typical” in the sense of “someone whose anatomy is typical of the gender that they identify and present as”. I’m just saying that a lot of people wouldn’t immediately know to interpret that term in that way. Fair enough. Maybe repetitive use of the term to mean that will lead more people to understand what it means. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberpvnk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Cyberpvnk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberpvnk)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/268 "2017-11-17T04:56:41Z")
Transgenderism, also known as gender dysphoria, is in itself a mental disorder. With this fact; yes, all transgender individuals who seriously believe they are and/or should be the opposite sex, has a mental disorder. ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/269 "2017-11-17T05:13:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn’t getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. **Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously.** I’m sorry that’s the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it’s yet another reason for competent psychological counseling. Quoted for truth. Much of this thread has centered around _dating_ and or the first date. (And a few pages of confusion largely because of poor terminology - transwoman versus post-op transsexual. The former being any transgendered person whether pre-op, post-op, or not transitioning at all, who identifies as female but was born physically male, while the latter is very specific - someone who is transgendered, has transitioned, AND has had vaginoplasty.) Anyway, while the first date / dating is a difficulty for transgendered people, what’s even worse are the long term prospects. In my opinion, there are 3 hurdles someone has to cross if they are dating from the very beginning / prior to their transition: (In this example, a transwoman, but reverse terms and the same applies for transmen) 1. If you meet someone you really like while you are still presenting / dressing as your birth sex, for example at work: If you are a straight trans woman: The man you are with is likely only attracted to men. Once you come out and begin living as a woman, the relationship is over. If you are a lesbian trans woman: The woman you are with is likely only attracted to men. Once you come out and begin living as a woman, the relationship is over. 1. If you meet someone after you are already living as a woman, and they are content with your outward appearance not matching your anatomy - they may not be equally content with the idea of you completing your transition. Once you have the final surgery, if their preference is someone who _does_ have a penis (or some time before, if it becomes nonfunctional at some point in the process), then the relationship is over. 2. Once your transition is complete, any relationship you have is going to reach a point where you disclose that you were raised as a member of the opposite sex. And finding out if the other person has a problem with that. If they do, the relationship is over. I can understand why many who are transgendered give up on relationships and dating. There aren’t a whole lot of people who are: a) bisexual, if they’re going to be with you through your entire transition, and b) accepting of transgendered persons. And you’re competing against every other trans person to find that particular needle in a haystack. On the topic of disclosure: If we’re talking about meeting someone in the 1) stage, I did not disclose this, because it is not relevant to disclose during casual dating. However, I did find a rather important and necessary thing to share if things were becoming serious and there was a prospect of a long term relationship. When you are in the 2) / transitioning phase: IMO pre-disclosure is not only none of their business, but as others have mentioned, dangerous. People get beaten and killed every year for casually revealing that information before they have learned if they can trust that person. And at the very least, they can ruin your career and family life with very little effort and sometimes without even intending to do so. I would say _any_ time prior to becoming intimate with the other person is the right time, if that person feels that it is - and the wrong time if they don’t. 1. / Post transition: I’m not there yet, but I would say that at that point, it falls back into the “none of your business” category. If you have some hangup about it, that’s really your problem. If we’re going to have a long term relationship, of course I’ll disclose my past because that’s part of a serious relationship, and I will of course be introducing you to my family and friends who knew me before the transition. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/270 "2017-11-17T06:55:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You can use whatever words you want. Sure, you can, but if you use clap to mean flu and flu to mean clap, you can’t complain when you’ve got a high fever and people applaud. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/271 "2017-11-17T07:01:16Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > Transgenderism, also known as gender dysphoria, is in itself a mental disorder. Those terms are not synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/272 "2017-11-17T07:30:14Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Sure, you can, but if you use clap to mean flu and flu to mean clap, you can’t complain when you’ve got a high fever and people applaud. Uh, if you tell people you have [the clap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonorrhea), they’re definitely not going to applaud. (They probably aren’t going to want to date you, either) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/273 "2017-11-17T15:32:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Uh, if you tell people you have [the clap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonorrhea), they’re definitely not going to applaud. (They probably aren’t going to want to date you, either) Luckily, there is no requirement to tell people, so they will still want to date you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/274 "2017-11-17T15:58:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think what we disagree about is _when_ that revelation should occur. I don’t have a problem with it being delayed until intimacy is about to occur. Then again, if you’re into having sex on the first that will come up pretty quickly, unlike myself that likes to take a little more time to get to know a person, first. > There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn’t getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously. I’m sorry that’s the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it’s yet another reason for competent psychological counseling. > Like I said, I think our disagreement is about _when_ this is made clear. What other medical items are you supposed to reveal _before_ the first date? Colostomy bags? Infertility? Skin grafts? I agree that the “when” is where we disagree. I think I have stated the reason why being upfront is the best course. What is the point behind waiting until the 10th date when things are about to get hot and heavy? Is it just to give yourself some time to figure out if this person is going to beat you up (so its a method of vetting your romantic partners before you reveal yourself to them)? Is it because you think that with enough emotional attachment people might be willing to give it a shot even if they wouldn’t have when you first started dating (so its a method of expanding your pool of romantic partners)? The vast majority of my dates have either been with people who set us up or with people i knew for a while before we ever started dating. Is everyone just using dating sites these days? If so then why don’t the dating sites allow you to screen out transgender folks so that you never get matched with someone that is transgender? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/275 "2017-11-17T16:09:25Z")
Without picking on any one post or person in particular, I have still not seen any convincing argument as to why someone who does not want to date a transgender person should not be open and forthright about that on a dating site, right in their profile where it can’t be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/276 "2017-11-17T16:10:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think I have stated the reason why being upfront is the best course. What is the point behind waiting until the 10th date when things are about to get hot and heavy? Is it just to give yourself some time to figure out if this person is going to beat you up (so its a method of vetting your romantic partners before you reveal yourself to them)? Maybe - is that really so bad? If after several dates you have reason to fear physical violence then that’s an excellent reason to end the relationship. There’s a point where the wait is too long, but I think individual circumstances vary so much that I wouldn’t give a hard and fast rule. > [@](#): > > Is it because you think that with enough emotional attachment people might be willing to give it a shot even if they wouldn’t have when you first started dating (so its a method of expanding your pool of romantic partners)? Another possibility. I don’t think that is likely to work, but it might. If someone gets to know you as a person first rather than as a “condition” that could alter how accepting they are. Maybe it’s a combination of the above. > [@](#): > > The vast majority of my dates have either been with people who set us up or with people i knew for a while before we ever started dating. Is everyone just using dating sites these days? I have no real idea - I’ve been off the market for the last 30 years myself, and don’t feel ready at the moment to start pursuing another romance. I’m not even sure I care about another romance at this point, I’m still grieving the loss of my spouse. I suspect “dating sites” are a bit like bars and clubs were back when I was last dating - it’s a common way to meet up with people, but not the only one, and not even always the best one. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/277 "2017-11-17T16:11:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Emphasis added. So why are you letting the transgender-dating-averse men get away with the dishonesty of not being upfront about the fact that they don’t want to date transgender people? Because there is NOTHING dishonest about it. There is no intent to deceive or misinform anyone about their aversion to transgender romantic partners. The population of people who don’t want to date transgender is very high, the population of transgender is very low. That is why utilitarian principles inform ethics here. > [@](#): > > As you and **molten** noted, a lot of transgender-dating-averse men don’t want to reveal that fact about themselves to potential dates because a lot of women will find it unappealing. But if they don’t want to be dishonest, according to you, they have to be upfront. I said WHAT?!?!? I may have pointed out something YOU said but I don’t think there is a stigma attached to not wanting to date transgender. None whatsoever. > [@](#): > > What you’ve got here, **Damuri Ajashi** , isn’t an ethical argument. It’s merely a retrofitted rationalization for pandering to the preferences of straight cisgender men at the expense of everybody else’s. > > _“I shouldn’t have to be upfront about my objections to dating transgender women, because that might get negative reactions from women in general. But transgender women should feel obligated to be upfront about their transgender status, and HIV+ women also should feel obligated to be upfront about their HIV+ status. There’s nothing wrong with my concealing the characteristics that other people probably wouldn’t like about me, but other people are being dishonest if they don’t immediately reveal the characteristics that I probably wouldn’t like about them.”_ :rolleyes: Nope, you’re getting really good at being wrong. I don’t think there is ANY stigma attached to an aversion to dating transgender or even HIV. NONE. > [@](#): > > Personally, I still prefer the far more straightforward and fair ethical approach that recognizes that it’s not dishonest for anybody to conceal personal information from potential dates, but if you do conceal a personal issue that’s very important to you for dating compatibility, you may sometimes find out you’ve been dating someone you’re not compatible with. Transgenderism is too rare for your idea to warrant much more than a chuckle. > [@](#): > > And if that happens, you don’t get to blame the other person for having concealed information from you while you were busy concealing from them the fact that you wanted to know it. Nope, you’re wrong again. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/278 "2017-11-17T16:16:03Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > Transgenderism, also known as gender dysphoria, is in itself a mental disorder. > > With this fact; yes, all transgender individuals who seriously believe they are and/or should be the opposite sex, has a mental disorder. It’s customary in here to either provide a citation for an extraordinary claim, or at least be known as having some sort of real-life experience or expertise. The APA (who publishes the DSM) states [“It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.”](https://www.psychiatry.org/File%20Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/DSM/APA_DSM-5-Gender-Dysphoria.pdf) As has been discussed at length, transition is a meaningful and validated method for improving quality of life and for relieving distress of transgender persons. My professional experience working at a psychological counseling institute that almost exclusively treats transgender persons, as well as my experience with the community on 4 continents, has been exactly that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/279 "2017-11-17T16:16:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And **Damuri Ajashi** seems to concur that this negative perception exists: Nope, I was just quoting the inconsistency in YOUR position > [@](#): > > Which sits a little oddly with **Damuri Ajashi** ’s simultaneous insistence that it’s so overwhelmingly normal and natural and nearly-universal for straight cisgender men to want to avoid any kind of dating activity whatsoever involving a transgender woman. If you consider 80%+ “near universal” then sure. 80%+ of all MEN AND WOMEN don’t want to date transgender. > [@](#): > > I would think that if strongly wanting to avoid any risk at all of going on even a first date with a woman who happens to be transgender is really such a typical attitude for such a vast majority of straight men, they wouldn’t be at all embarrassed or hesitant to admit it right up front. They’re not. Its just not something you think about until the situation presents itself because its so fucking rare. > [@](#): > > If your question is (A), then I think **Broomstick** said it best: > > Being so anxious to avoid any possible dating activity whatsoever with transgender women that you require them to pre-emptively announce their transgender status even without being asked about it does suggest the possibility of transphobia. As **Miller** put it, Transphobia or not, 80%+ do not want to date transgender. Knowing this, not disclosing your transgender status before getting romantically involved is deceptive. Its not the end of the world but its dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/280 "2017-11-17T16:22:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, that’s not the part I quoted. I don’t think that the mere fact of being not being sexually attracted to a transgender person is “anti-trans” at all, much less “virulently” so. > > But I do agree that a lot of straight cisgender women wouldn’t want to date a man who was virulently anti-trans. And I think that being super-averse to even the possibility of even starting to date a transgender woman, to the point where you insist that transgender women are obligated to announce their status pre-emptively to all potential dates without even being asked, can raise some red flags in the “anti-trans” category. You have a very weird definition of virulent. 80%+ of people are averse to dating trasngender. That’s men and women. I insist that dating someone who does not know you are trans when you know that 80% of people wouldn’t want to date you if they knew is dishonest. You can go out and date strangers (I don’t think I have done this very frequently outside of blind date sort of situations) but if so then you are being dishonest if you don’t tell them you are transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/281 "2017-11-17T16:29:52Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m not meaning this to be snarky, but educational. > > The focus on the parts is part of the problem. > > The surgeries are actually relatively easy. Relative to the potential loss of marriage, children, friends, relatives, community standing, church, housing, employment and career. > > Please consider re-calibrating what about us seems like it would be most difficult. I won’t make light of the medical aspect of transition, I’ve had several surgeries. But…honestly, all the physical pain, the psychodrama, etc. around the medical part of transition, pales next to the familial, career, social, legal, and other aspects. > > Ask yourself why surgery seems to be the most difficult part to imagine. Because I and all my kin would assure you, it’s really not. I can’t pretend that I can walk in your shoes. I understand that the ostracization by family and friends can be severe. I don’t know how it scales with coming out as gay but I suspect its at least as bad as coming out was in the 1980s. Most of the other stuff seems like things that can be addressed with legislation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=15)