# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/342 "2017-11-18T17:13:53Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > Clinical research you say? What scientific clinical research states that it’s not a mental disorder to think you are something you physically are not? You do understand how outlandish this is to even argue that it’s okay and normal to think you are a male when in reality you are a female, vice-versa? The irony, of course, is that people direct this argument to a forum member who actually was NOT clearly male or female at birth but rather intersex… in other words, someone who was _neither_ physically entirely male or female at birth. Granted, this doesn’t apply to all transgender people, but some subset of them actually were never “clearly” male or female at birth. > [@](#): > > But please, continue to deny and ignore all self-evident biological evidence that supports my stance. Biology is often more complicated than people realize. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/343 "2017-11-18T17:24:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As an aside, I reference it a few times but why are transgender folks out there trying to date total strangers? Aren’t they concerned about getting beaten up when their date finds out whenever they happen to tell them (presumably they will tell them at some point). Why not find out before dating? Given that a common fall-out from physically transitioning is being ostracized by everyone who knew you pre-transition… who do they have left but “total strangers”? They people they used to call friend have abandoned them, as have their acquaintances. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberpvnk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Cyberpvnk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberpvnk)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/344 "2017-11-18T17:42:26Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Uh huh. > Because the APA, made up of actual medical researchers and clinicians - as well as numerous other medical bodies around the world - disagree with you. > > You made an assertion which you now claim is based on “logic.” The burden is on you to defend your initial assertion in the light of that evidence presented to you. So do it. Lol. Okay. If you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. No matter what you think, whether you are a male and think you are a female or vice-versa, it does not change the fact that you have the sexual biology you were born with. If you think you are a male, when biologically you are not, there is something wrong with your head. That defies reality and biological science itself. Is that so hard to grasp? ---
**Author:** ![Cyberpvnk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Cyberpvnk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberpvnk)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/345 "2017-11-18T17:46:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The irony, of course, is that people direct this argument to a forum member who actually was NOT clearly male or female at birth but rather intersex… in other words, someone who was _neither_ physically entirely male or female at birth. > > Granted, this doesn’t apply to all transgender people, but some subset of them actually were never “clearly” male or female at birth. > Biology is often more complicated than people realize. I’ve heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder. I’m curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/346 "2017-11-18T18:30:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Right, and an allergen that affects 80% of the population would never be put into food at a restaurant. Perhaps you’d prefer to pick a food that 80% of the population would find “a waste of time”, rather than a food that 80% of the population would be actively harmed by? Maybe something weird like gold flake or lutefisk? I did not come up with the allergy analogy. Kimstu did while trying to place the burden on the 80% of people who do not want to date transgender. Perhaps something like licorice. If an item on the menu tastes like licorice, and you know that 80% of people don’t want to eat things flavored like licorice then its probably something you would put in the menu description. You wouldn’t expect the 80% of people to say “Oh by the way, I don’t like licorice, is there anything on the menu that tastes like licorice, I’d like to avoid it?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/347 "2017-11-18T18:36:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The biggest problem is the portion of the 80% who would use such a revelation as an an excuse for violence, up to and including rape, murder, or both. The assault information for transgender individuals indicates that that group does, indeed, exist. Absolutely, and I would think that would be an argument for vetting people BEFORE you date total strangers but if you are going to do that, do you think that the violence is more likely if you are upfront before you go on a date or after a few dates? I know some people will just go around gay bashing transgender folks. But I suspect that there is a population of people who would be repulsed if they knew before they started to get romantically (not necessarily sexually) involved but might be violent if they found out after they started to get romantically involved. Why do transgender women want to date so many strangers? AFAICT, a lot of times, they end up with a lot of dudes that are interested in satisfying some fetish or want to cross it off their bucket list. How many genuine relationships can they expect to find from dating strangers? Isn’t there a community of people that transgender women can tap into who are genuinely interested in a long and loving relationship with a transgender woman and not just satisfying a kink? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/348 "2017-11-18T18:37:04Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > Lol. Okay. > > If you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. No matter what you think, whether you are a male and think you are a female or vice-versa, it does not change the fact that you have the sexual biology you were born with. If you think you are a male, when biologically you are not, there is something wrong with your head. That defies reality and biological science itself. > > Is that so hard to grasp? Why is it so important to you? Seriously, why do people CARE so much about whether someone’s trans or not? I mean, unless you plan on dating a person, what does it matter? It’s not hurting you, it has no effect on you whatsoever. Even if being trans is a mental illness, transitioning and living as their non-biological sex seems to be the best way to treat it. So if said person is happy, functioning, and not harming anyone, who gives a shit? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/349 "2017-11-18T18:38:38Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It can reduce the risk to the child. It _increases_ the risk to the mother. But, of course, that’s consistent with so many in our society valuing fetuses over adult women. Its frequently the mom that wants it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/350 "2017-11-18T18:40:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Given that a common fall-out from physically transitioning is being ostracized by everyone who knew you pre-transition… who do they have left but “total strangers”? They people they used to call friend have abandoned them, as have their acquaintances. Isn’t there some sort of support system in the transgender community to help people transition into their new life? To provide a community for people who may have be cut off by everyone they ever knew? It seems like this has to exist, the need for something like this is just too obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/351 "2017-11-18T18:49:34Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > I’ve heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder. > > I’m curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology? Let’s start with the existence of XY females and XX males. There are living people right now who have the “wrong” chromosomes for their appearance _at birth_. Prior to the discovery of chromosomes XY women were assumed to be women whose internal organs for some mysterious reason didn’t develop properly but were unquestionably women. Post-discovery of chromosomes you have parents being told their daughter is actually their son when their child has NO external male anatomy and, indeed, may be more feminine in appearance than average. Likewise, XX men externally are me, they have a fully functional penis, and generally are only discovered when a thorough work up for infertility reveals that their chromosomes are XX instead of XY. Yes, those are birth/developmental defects. They also are of a sort that don’t need to be corrected. Then there are all the various intersex conditions. What’s complicated is that there are a LOT of exceptions to the binary concept of either male or female but never in between. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/352 "2017-11-18T18:54:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do transgender women want to date so many strangers? AFAICT, a lot of times, they end up with a lot of dudes that are interested in satisfying some fetish or want to cross it off their bucket list. How many genuine relationships can they expect to find from dating strangers? Isn’t there a community of people that transgender women can tap into who are genuinely interested in a long and loving relationship with a transgender woman and not just satisfying a kink? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Isn’t there some sort of support system in the transgender community to help people transition into their new life? To provide a community for people who may have be cut off by everyone they ever knew? It seems like this has to exist, the need for something like this is just too obvious. I’m going to leave those questions for Una, if she’s willing to answer them. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/353 "2017-11-18T20:49:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … > Why do transgender women want to date so many strangers? … Why does anyone date strangers? Everyone is safer dating someone in their community, and yet dating apps, designed to help people date strangers are massively popular. I imagine transgender women date strangers for the same reasons cisgender women date strangers. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/354 "2017-11-18T20:55:57Z")
Oops, I meant to address this, too. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … Isn’t there a community of people that transgender women can tap into who are genuinely interested in a long and loving relationship with a transgender woman and not just satisfying a kink? Believe it or not, their are lots of cis people who are genuinely interested in loving relationships and don’t see “trans” as a major issue. Just as there are non-diabetics who don’t see type 1 diabetes as a relationship-killer. I admit, in my experience, bisexual women are the most common partners for trans people of either gender. But there are trans people who are really hot by any ordinary standard, and I would expect they have a broad pool of potential partners, just as really hot cis people do. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/355 "2017-11-18T21:39:17Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > I’ve heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder. > > I’m curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology? So, given that lots of people have birth defects leading them to have a poor match between the gender they were assigned and other parts (such as their brains) what should the rest of us do about it? Should we point and say “freak! freak!” Or should we let them live as the gender most comfortable to them, and treat them as members of the community? The second seems like the obviously superior choice to me. Speaking of which, it’s not as if it’s some new invention that there are people who don’t fall nearly into either sex or gender. The Talmud has all sorts of rules about how to deal with intersex people. ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/356 "2017-11-19T02:55:52Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > I’ve heard this argument a thousand times, and you are correct, it has nothing to do with the mental illness that is transgenderism. That is a birth defect, not a mental disorder. > > I’m curious to know what is so complicated in regards to human biology? I reject the idea that intersex is a birth defect. There are many animal species that have hermaphrodite members, to one degree or another - humans just happen to be one of them. There are even species that naturally change entirely from one sex to another. Clearly, sexual fluidity carries some kind of evolutionary advantage, or it wouldn’t be so common. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/357 "2017-11-19T05:58:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Oops, I meant to address this, too.Believe it or not, their are lots of cis people who are genuinely interested in loving relationships and don’t see “trans” as a major issue. Just so you know, many people find “cis” a derogatory term. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/358 "2017-11-19T06:20:42Z")
> [@Cyberpvnk](#): > > Lol. Okay. > > If you have a penis, you are a male. If you have a vagina, you are a female. No matter what you think, whether you are a male and think you are a female or vice-versa, it does not change the fact that you have the sexual biology you were born with. If you think you are a male, when biologically you are not, there is something wrong with your head. That defies reality and biological science itself. > > Is that so hard to grasp? LOL yourself. You understand and know nothing about the subject of sex, genetics, gender, and gender identity. Bored now. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/359 "2017-11-19T06:40:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its pretty simple. The cost of disclosure by 0.5% of the population when they date total strangers is higher than the cost of disclosure by 80%+ of the population when they date total strangers. Huh? So you’re agreeing with me? > [@](#): > > Yes and why can’t they make that revelation before the date starts? Why can’t the cisgender people? > [@](#): > > Victim by who? The total stranger they are choosing to date? Perhaps a better filter before dating someone would be a better idea if the threat of violence is so prevalent. That sort of victim-blaming would be bad enough if it even gave a nod to the concerns with any seriousness. Why don’t all those cisgender men out there who have our well-being paramount actively start actively policing other cisgender men to stop beating and killing us? > [@](#): > > No its not. I don’t intend to ever go on a date again in my life. I’m not trying to avoid anything. I have a bias, I doubt very many people in my generation don’t have this bias. I don’t have any hatred in my heart for transgender people, I pity them. In many ways, they drew a bad hand in life and they’re trying to make the best of it. Yet you seem to keep entering threads about people like me, asking a lot of questions, and seemingly making a lot of demands on us. > [@](#): > > No, it is an opinion informed by utilitarian principles. And if my “utilitarian principles” say the opposite. > [@](#): > > You do know what utilitarianism isn’t a form of math right? You do know that you are basing your entire argument on your opinion? Calling it “utilitarian principles” appears to be only an attempt to give your opinion greater weight than it has by giving it a different name. Whereas I’m just outright calling my opinion an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/360 "2017-11-19T11:05:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Just so you know, many people find “cis” a derogatory term. I don’t know that. It’s a term describing most of the population, so it would be odd for it to be derogatory. But anyway, when Microsoft word told me “many people find ‘Jew’ a derogatory term, you should avoid using it”, I said, “screw you, Microsoft. I’m a Jew and I’m reclaiming that word.” I’m cis, too. I don’t know any other word to succinctly describe my condition. I’m gong to stick with this one, until I have evidence that some other word has replaced it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/361 "2017-11-19T12:09:43Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > I reject the idea that intersex is a birth defect. > > There are many animal species that have hermaphrodite members, to one degree or another - humans just happen to be one of them. There are even species that naturally change entirely from one sex to another. An intersex condition that prevents a person from reproducing, or in extreme cases having typical sexual intercourse, probably should be described as a defect. Less extreme ones that do not interfere with reproduction probably are better called natural variation. However, for human beings it is not normal to be hermaphroditic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=19)