# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/21 "2017-11-01T19:13:20Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Not the best example is this? So many vets came back seriously damaged. My sister’s best friend’s husband was one of the many delayed casualities that committed suicide not too long after his return from that hell. I know. My brother worked in a center for them. But all? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/22 "2017-11-01T19:16:48Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Not the best example is this? So many vets came back seriously damaged. My sister’s best friend’s husband was one of the many delayed casualities that committed suicide not too long after his return from that hell. Also with high suicide rate, if someone is mistreated by society wouldn’t that alone lead to a higher suicide rate? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/23 "2017-11-01T19:19:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I know. My brother worked in a center for them. But all? Well no, not all, but it does seem like too many. Wasn’t helped by being the war that wasn’t really support at home the way prior and later wars were. I remember WWII vets complaining Vietnam vets were whiny. I remember people in the same age group saying they would take off for Canada before fighting a war for big business or becoming a baby killer. It was extra ugly for these vets. No glory, just nightmares. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/24 "2017-11-01T19:39:42Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yeah. In Spain you need a diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” to have your gender changed in ID and to get sex reassignment treatment through the public system. Problem: since the previous sentence includes the word “diagnosis”, now you have a psychiatric diagnosis. Yeah, which makes it a bit circular, in a _petitio principii_ way, to then say that trans folks are mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/25 "2017-11-01T19:51:40Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Yeah, which makes it a bit circular, in a _petitio principii_ way, to then say that trans folks are mentally ill. Not really. As noted in my quote in Post #16: > [@](#): > > A new condition called “gender dysphoria” was added to diagnose and treat those transgender individuals who felt distress at the mismatch between their identities and their bodies. The new diagnosis recognized that a mismatch between one’s birth gender and identity was not necessarily pathological, notes pediatric endocrinologist Norman Spack, a founder of the gender clinic at Boston Children’s Hospital. It shifted the emphasis in treatment from fixing a disorder to resolving distress over the mismatch.\* > > Spack compares the DSM-5’s new definition as similar in effect to its 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental illness. > > SOURCE: [Where Transgender Is No Longer a Diagnosis | Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/where-transgender-is-no-longer-a-diagnosis/) Makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/26 "2017-11-01T20:04:31Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wasn’t helped by being the war that wasn’t really support at home the way prior and later wars were. I know that, during the first Gulf War (1990-1991), there was a concerted effort to show support for servicepersons who were involved in the war, particularly after they returned home. I saw a lot of yellow ribbons tied around trees in those days. As that was the U.S.'s first major conflict after Vietnam, there was a lot of sensitivity to how Vietnam vets had been treated upon returning home, and the psychological issues that they faced. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/27 "2017-11-01T20:07:10Z")
If transgenderism is nothing but a mental illness, so what? Does that mean it isn’t real or something? A lot of mental illness can’t be treated effectively with medication or talk therapy. What do we tell people with such recalcitrant disorders? CHANGE YOUR LIFESTYLE. Personally, I think a lot of people are miserable because they are living in ways they aren’t suited for. If a depressed, married, high-powered salesman thinks he could find wellness in being single and painting houses for a living, I say let him follow these paths. Maybe he’ll find that he was wrong. But it should still be his right to change his lifestyle, especially in the quest of well-being and happiness. Similarly, transgendered folks should have the right to do what they want tto find happiness. Maybe individuals will discover that they made a bad choice by switching gender, but that will just be a mistake they have to live with. Just like any other voluntary medical decision a person makes for themselves. I think the problem is that people treat gender as some sacred thing that should only be fooled around for serious medical reasons. If we treated gender as just another aspect of identity rather than as one’s inherent “essence”, maybe it wouldn’t be such a big deal for someone to experiment with their gender in an attempt to find happiness. But because gender is considered a big deal, we don’t want just anyone dicking (hehehe) around with it. It is like we think that would upset the world order or something. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/28 "2017-11-01T20:39:00Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not really. As noted in my quote in Post #16: > > Makes sense to me. Well, I certainly don’t think it’s pathological. But then I don’t think any mental or emotional condition is pathological unless the person who has it defines it as pathological. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/29 "2017-11-01T20:51:29Z")
Una has mentioned in other threads that there are still a lot of shrinks out there who think it’s a mental illness; oddly enough, they also look at the numbers and tend to realize that transition is a near-perfect cure for the suicidal tendencies and therefore are more likely to support transition as the only effect treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/30 "2017-11-01T20:52:42Z")
Wouldn’t defining it as a mental illness also make treatment (aka hormones, surgery, etc) easier to get? It could be covered by insurance, rather than out of pocket. I don’t see anything wrong with saying transgenderism is a mental illness, (or at least, some kind of medical condition) and that the way to treat it is, well, transitioning. It’s certainly NOT something a person chooses. But being trans often impacts a person negatively, if they’re not permitted to live as the gender they identify with. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/31 "2017-11-01T20:54:17Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Well, I certainly don’t think it’s pathological. But then I don’t think any mental or emotional condition is pathological unless the person who has it defines it as pathological. I would submit that many crazy people do not know they are crazy. For example [President Trump’s narcissism is almost certainly pathological](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/trump-and-the-pathology-of-narcissism-w474896) but he would never admit to it. Not admitting it does not mean it is not pathological or not damaging. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/32 "2017-11-01T21:08:10Z")
If we mean “mental illness” in a derogatory or pejoratary sense, then no. If we mean it in the sense of, “this person has some confusion that surely a therapist can talk them out of”, then also no. If we mean it in the sense that, “This person has an atypical brain feature that is causing difficulty for their life”, then yes. Given that doctors have to be involved to correct the issue, it’s certainly in the realm of “illness”. Also given that the two potential methods for fixing it are either to change the person’s body to match their mental image or to change their mental image, it seems reasonable to say that this is something related to the brain and how it processes information. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/33 "2017-11-01T21:40:41Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I wouldn’t characterize transgenderism as a mental illness. > > But certainly a lot of those who are transgendered suffer from social phobias associated with it. > > It’s hard enough for us normal, well-adjusted people to function in society. > > Now imagine feeling trapped in the wrong body, from birth, and having to explain that to your friends, family, parents, teachers. > > This is why the suicide rate is high amongst trans people. And this is why unconditional family support is paramount. This is an excellent response, nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/34 "2017-11-01T21:55:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would submit that many crazy people do not know they are crazy. > > For example [President Trump’s narcissism is almost certainly pathological](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/trump-and-the-pathology-of-narcissism-w474896) but he would never admit to it. Not admitting it does not mean it is not pathological or not damaging. I didn’t say a person could not be CRAZY without knowing it, but being crazy isn’t a sickness or an illness except where the person suffering from it is… well, you know, _suffering_ from it. People who are happy or comfortable in their loonitudinalities have the right to stay crazy and to designate their difference as ‘differently minded’ or ‘proudly batshit and I vote’ or whatever, and to not be categorized as an illness. (Doesn’t mean we don’t lock them up for crimes they commit, or impeach them for them as need be, or avoid them because we find them egregiously bad company or too much fucking wear and tear — they don’t get special treatment in other words!) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/35 "2017-11-01T22:05:05Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I didn’t say a person could not be CRAZY without knowing it, but being crazy isn’t a sickness or an illness except where the person suffering from it is… well, you know, _suffering_ from it. People who are happy or comfortable in their loonitudinalities have the right to stay crazy and to designate their difference as ‘differently minded’ or ‘proudly batshit and I vote’ or whatever, and to not be categorized as an illness. (Doesn’t mean we don’t lock them up for crimes they commit, or impeach them for them as need be, or avoid them because we find them egregiously bad company or too much fucking wear and tear — they don’t get special treatment in other words!) We can get them declared incompetent and put their care in someone else’s hands. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/36 "2017-11-01T22:20:02Z")
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can be treated quite successfully by transitioning to the gender one identifies as. “Being transgender” is the cure, not the disease. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/37 "2017-11-01T22:27:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We can get them declared incompetent and put their care in someone else’s hands. Only if you can prove they’re incompetent. Which isn’t dependent on the presence or absence of craziness per se. And there are protections built in, to keep your greedy-ass nephews from having _you_ declared incompetent and helping themselves to your estate when you’re old. One person’s “delusions” are another person’s perfectly cromulent conceptual conjurings. Competency tends to revolve around “would you know how to get home if the trains stopped running?” and “any idea what year this is, and who the president is?” and “do you know what this hearing is about?” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/38 "2017-11-02T00:41:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > If you have lots and lots of people - including your parents, teachers, doctors, priests and elected officials - telling you that something fundamentally ingrained in your sense of self demonstrates that you are “mentally ill” (not to mention “sinful”, “broken”, “perverted”, “sick”, “evil”, “depraved”, etc.), you are much more like to suffer from depression, anxiety and suicidal tendencies. > > Driving someone to suicide and then saying “See? I told you there was something wrong with them!” is not only a logical fail but a moral one. Let’s do a survey, called “what’s happening on Una’s Facebook feed today.” Of the first 25 transgender persons on my feed, 8 of them are posting today about a serious problem in their life that is related to being transgender. 1. Wife took both kids to Oklahoma, refuses to follow court order of visitation because transgender woman (former husband) is “a destructive influence on the gender identity of the children.” Doesn’t have the money to hire an attorney because they lost their job coming out and has spent $$$ already. Has posted about “giving up.” 2. Sex worker, who is having trouble making rent because she was beaten two weekends ago. Used to have a job paying $50k, now works minimum wage and supplements by sex work). 3. Transgender man needs a cheaper way to get hormones because he cannot afford them due to being underemployed (was a retail manager before coming out, now works 20 hours a week selling tires.) 4. Transgender teen who is afraid to go to school due to bullying. Has posted about “giving up.” 5. Transgender woman who is trying to come to grips with her new church (she had to leave her old church of 30+ years due to discrimination when she came out.) 6. Transgender veteran concerned deeply because the VA doctor told her Trump might soon make it illegal for them to give her hormones. 7. Transgender woman in the middle of a nasty divorce involving kids. Has posed of emotional and physical abuse from her soon-to-be-ex. Has posted about “giving up.” 8. Very lonely gender non-conforming person who hasn’t had a second date in 3 years (since they came out) because when they reveal their gender identity on the first date, the other half heads for the hills. Has posted about “giving up.” Just 8 people out of 25 in a random sampling. Some days it’s so bad I have to tune out, because otherwise it’s overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/39 "2017-11-02T02:11:28Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Gender dysphoria is a mental illness that can be treated quite successfully by transitioning to the gender one identifies as. “Being transgender” is the cure, not the disease. There are two things at odd with each other. One is the brain’s perception of the body it’s housed in. The other is the body the brain perceives. What causes the least harm to the individual to treat? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/40 "2017-11-02T02:28:01Z")
According to established medical science and practice since the 1960’s, the body. But then that question has already been answered about 1,000 times on here, for others also wanting to channel Ms. Steinem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=3)