# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/502 "2017-11-29T07:19:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If asked directly, “Are you a ciswoman” and the answer given is “yes” when the truth is “no,” then that would be dishonest. > > (Another perfectly honest answer would be, “That’s none of your business,” but it would give the bigot useful data.) It’s now considered bigoted to not want to date what you don’t want to date? ---
**Author:** ![AI\_Proofreader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AI\_Proofreader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AI_Proofreader)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/503 "2017-11-29T07:59:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Did they expect you to be a “typical guy”? Did you know they wanted a “typical guy”? Did you know they thought you were a “typical guy” and even know you knew that fact, you still pretended to be a “typical guy”? > > If none of those questions are “yes”, then yes, dating is completely different. If you answer all of them with “yes” then, yes, you were being dishonest. > > When people think you are something, and you know they think that, and you know you aren’t that something, then not telling them is dishonest. Doesn’t matter what the “something” is. > > Dude. If everyone in a town is convinced atheists are actually Satanists who sacrifice babies, and will not employ anyone who volunteers the information that they are an atheist, and might come by and burn my house down if they find out my name - is it still “dishonest” for me not to tell them? No. It’s simply reasonable and prudent to do so. The same applies to AHunter3’s story about his blatant \*discrimination \*in the workplace. “Dishonesty” implies wrongdoing. There are many, many circumstances in which withholding information has the result of being a net good, and this is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/504 "2017-11-29T13:59:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, let’s step through this. > > 1. I think it’s improper to require transgender people to reveal that they’re transgender. > > 2. You propose a hypothetical dating website that requires people to reveal whether or not they’re transgender. > > 1 + 2 = that’s a shitty dating site, and people should go to a better one that doesn’t require everyone to disclose private medical details as part of your dating profile. Ok, that’s good. But I don’t think my proposal is hypothetical. There are dating sites that have transgender options for a profile. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/505 "2017-11-29T14:00:27Z")
Not to mention that withholding information is fundamental different from giving false information. We all withhold information in every interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/506 "2017-11-29T14:00:30Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > If everyone in a town is convinced atheists are actually Satanists who sacrifice babies, and will not employ anyone who volunteers the information that they are an atheist, and might come by and burn my house down if they find out my name - is it still “dishonest” for me not to tell them? > > No. It’s simply reasonable and prudent to do so. The same applies to AHunter3’s story about his blatant \*discrimination \*in the workplace. “Dishonesty” implies wrongdoing. There are many, many circumstances in which withholding information has the result of being a net good, and this is one of them. Being dishonest can definitely be reasonable and prudent to do. Doesn’t make it any less dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/507 "2017-11-29T14:02:12Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > There are many, many circumstances in which withholding information has the result of being a net good, and this is one of them. Perhaps you can explain what the “net good” is when a transgender woman doesn’t disclose she is transgender before a date? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/508 "2017-11-29T14:03:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ok, that’s good. But I don’t think my proposal is hypothetical. There are dating sites that have transgender options for a profile. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Being dishonest can definitely be reasonable and prudent to do. Doesn’t make it any less dishonest. If that’s part of the standard profile, then I think you can make a fair claim that it’s dishonest to leave it out if it applies to you. But if you aren’t asked, I don’t think there’s any obligation to volunteer the information, and I don’t think it’s dishonest. I imagine everyone leaves out some details when describing themselves on a dating site. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/509 "2017-11-29T14:08:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If that’s part of the standard profile, then I think you can make a fair claim that it’s dishonest to leave it out if it applies to you. But if you aren’t asked, I don’t think there’s any obligation to volunteer the information, and I don’t think it’s dishonest. I imagine everyone leaves out some details when describing themselves on a dating site. Is there any information that you feel should be disclosed to a person before a first date? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/510 "2017-11-29T16:26:55Z")
When Person A first contacts Person B through the auspices of a dating web site, there is some process of communication that begins to take place, and at some arbitrary point this process of communication may also come to be called “dating”. There are people whose tendency is to exchange a couple of rudimentary flirtatious inquiries followed by a proposal to meet in person. There are other people whose tendency is to exchange a vast depth of information about themselves and attempt to learn a vast amount about the other person over a protracted period of time, before finally getting around to meeting face to face. Here’s why this is a relevant distinction: > [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there any information that you feel should be disclosed to a person before a first date? > [@octopus](#): > > It’s now considered bigoted to not want to date what you don’t want to date? > [@Slash1972](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > I think most transgender people would agree that somewhere between exchanging some initial conversations on the dating site and putting hands on each others’ tingly parts, a conversation about being transgender should take place > > And I think most cisgender people would agree that somewhere between exchanging some initial conversations on the dating site and meeting for the first date, a conversation about being transgender should take place… When is it wise and appropriate for a person to discuss such things as their own attitudes towards gender, their own gender normativity or variance, what they are looking for in terms of sexuality and sexual orientation as how the modern dialogue about gender identity applies to that and so forth? Someone who says “before the first date” may have a not-unreasonable point if their tendency is to exchange long chatty emails and have soul-baring telephone converstaions or chat sessions long into the night for months before meeting up with someone they practically think of themselves as being in love with before they’ve met face to face, if a face to face meeting is what they mean by “a date”. Reciprocally, someone who says “some time during the course of dating” may have in mind that you go on a date precisely in order to begin discovering these kinds of things about the other person, in order to see how compatible you’re going to be with each other — and that it is _on_ dates that you do the soul-baring and exchange of personal information, not before. There are also enormous differences in dating sites. Put Tinder on one end and OKCupid on the other. Tinder gives you photos and damn little else to go on and you do your own matching after an initial linking mechanism based on little more than “I am a man seeking women” vs “I am a woman seeking men” and perhaps age and general location. OKCupid asks you _thousands_ of questions and uses your answers, and your rating of the importance of other folks’ answers, and which answers you’d find acceptable in a partner, to match you with appropriate people. Among those thousands of questions are many versions and variations of the subject matter of this very thread. If you sign up for OKCupid you may very well get the question “When, if ever, do you think it is important for transgender people to tell people on a dating site that they are transgender? On their profile, within conversations before the first date, on the first date, before any physical erotic activity, only if the other person asks, never unless the transgender person feels like bringing it up? And which of these answers would be acceptable in a partner? And how important is this question in matching you with a potential partner: very important, somewhat important, not important at all?” I do not think that someone using a dating site along the lines of Tinder, who then picks somone out (or gets picked out by someone) and they exchange a couple “Hey what’s up. Hey you doing anything tomorrow, wanna meet up for lunch or something?” type messages and then meet in person has any semblance of a reasonable expectation that the other person is going to tell them that they are transgender (or, for that matter, that they don’t wish to date a person who is transgender). I would agree that there’s a more reasonable expectation that this kind of personal information would be shared along with and as part of the general process of personal sharing that one engages in when getting to know someone intimately. ---
**Author:** ![SarahWitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@SarahWitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahWitch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/511 "2017-11-29T17:07:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there any information that you feel should be disclosed to a person before a first date? The question is, what would be the legal impact if it wasn’t? For example, some women claimed it’s “rape” if a man lies about his profession etc. in order to get women to have sex with him… which of course is nonsense. But if a transsexual woman (i.e. like Jenner) claimed to be biologically female, then that might be different. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/512 "2017-11-29T17:11:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s now considered bigoted to not want to date what you don’t want to date? It can be. A guy who refuses to date on the basis of race, religion, etc., is exhibiting bigotry. Give me another word to describe it. I think that people have the right to know, and so I think that people should disclose their status when asked, and if they lie about it, they’re being improperly deceptive. Bigots have a right to discriminate, in legitimate “freedom of association” circumstances. i.e., not in hiring, commerce, renting, sales, business contracts, etc., but, say, if you have a birthday party for your little kid and don’t want to invite any Jews. It’s bigotry…but legal. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/513 "2017-11-29T17:55:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there any information that you feel should be disclosed to a person before a first date? Sure, what time you want to meet, how to recognize each other, what you hope to get out of the first date… If what you hope to get from that first date includes sex, I suppose you should probably disclose more. But if I were on the market (I’m not) there’s no way I would want to do anything more than talk in a pleasant public place on a first date and try to get to know each other a little. > [@SarahWitch](#): > > The question is, what would be the legal impact if it wasn’t? For example, some women claimed it’s “rape” if a man lies about his profession etc. in order to get women to have sex with him… which of course is nonsense. > > But if a transsexual woman (i.e. like Jenner) claimed to be biologically female, then that might be different. I’m pretty sure no one would think it’s rape to have coffee with someone else under false pretenses. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/514 "2017-11-29T18:24:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It can be. A guy who refuses to date on the basis of race, religion, etc., is exhibiting bigotry. > > Give me another word to describe it. > > I think that people have the right to know, and so I think that people should disclose their status when asked, and if they lie about it, they’re being improperly deceptive. Bigots have a right to discriminate, in legitimate “freedom of association” circumstances. i.e., not in hiring, commerce, renting, sales, business contracts, etc., but, say, if you have a birthday party for your little kid and don’t want to invite any Jews. It’s bigotry…but legal. Bigotry seems like a strong word to apply to someone who has sexual preferences that might include race or whatever. It’s bigoted to not invite the black guy to your house when you host the neighborhood block party. It’s not bigoted to only date Asians. IMHO. (oops, wrong forum?) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/515 "2017-11-29T19:16:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Bigotry seems like a strong word to apply to someone who has sexual preferences that might include race or whatever. It’s bigoted to not invite the black guy to your house when you host the neighborhood block party. It’s not bigoted to only date Asians. IMHO. > > (oops, wrong forum?) This is actually something that’s currently a hot discussion topic among the gay community (such as it is). I’ve seen a lot of FB posts about how “No blacks, no Asians” etc is bigoted. It’s getting a lot of print online. I agree with the opinion that is IS bigoted. It’s one thing to maybe find fewer African-Americans or Asians attractive than white guys, but simply barring the door with a pre-emptive “NO!” sight-unseen is a bit prejudiced. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/516 "2017-11-29T19:20:01Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Bigotry seems like a strong word to apply to someone who has sexual preferences that might include race or whatever. It’s bigoted to not invite the black guy to your house when you host the neighborhood block party. It’s not bigoted to only date Asians. IMHO. > > (oops, wrong forum?) Trouble is, I can’t think of a better word. It’s sad, because it diminishes the word and the concept a bit. It’s “okay” to have strong preferences in dating, even if it is kinda churlish. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/517 "2017-11-29T19:21:20Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > This is actually something that’s currently a hot discussion topic among the gay community (such as it is). I’ve seen a lot of FB posts about how “No blacks, no Asians” etc is bigoted. It’s getting a lot of print online. > > I agree with the opinion that is IS bigoted. It’s one thing to maybe find fewer African-Americans or Asians attractive than white guys, but simply barring the door with a pre-emptive “NO!” sight-unseen is a bit prejudiced. How do you feel about someone putting “No Transgender women”? Is that bigoted? What about “Cisgender only please”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/518 "2017-11-29T19:34:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How do you feel about someone putting “No Transgender women”? Is that bigoted? What about “Cisgender only please”? I’ve all along been on the side that says people trying so desperately to avoid even having to MEET a transperson that they can’t risk waiting to get to know a person better before demanding that information are holding at least a little bit of transphobia. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/519 "2017-11-29T19:37:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’ve all along been on the side that says people trying so desperately to avoid even having to MEET a transperson that they can’t risk waiting to get to know a person better before demanding that information are holding at least a little bit of transphobia. I think there is a fair amount of difference between “meet” and “date”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/520 "2017-11-29T19:39:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think there is a fair amount of difference between “meet” and “date”. See, I think the purpose of a first date is to meet each other. Maybe that’s why we see it so differently. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/521 "2017-11-29T19:55:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think there is a fair amount of difference between “meet” and “date”. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > See, I think the purpose of a first date is to meet each other. Maybe that’s why we see it so differently. _AHEM_[Post 507](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20631464&postcount=507) Assuming I’m neither chopped liver nor on y’all’s ignore list… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=27)