# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/522 "2017-11-29T20:03:12Z")
Yeah, I read that. I consider it: “Meet” someone on a dating site. Then go on a “date” Not “meet” with someone to consider whether or not to start “dating” them. I would meet with anybody, regardless of gender, orientation, whatever. I just wouldn’t “date” them. It’s two different things to me. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/523 "2017-11-29T20:05:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > This is actually something that’s currently a hot discussion topic among the gay community (such as it is). I’ve seen a lot of FB posts about how “No blacks, no Asians” etc is bigoted. It’s getting a lot of print online. > > I agree with the opinion that is IS bigoted. It’s one thing to maybe find fewer African-Americans or Asians attractive than white guys, but simply barring the door with a pre-emptive “NO!” sight-unseen is a bit prejudiced. How about Jewish people seeking Jewish people? Muslims seeking Muslims? Catholics seeking Catholics? Is that bigoted as well? Dating within one’s own faith community is a long accepted practice. Surely the one looking for a date has the privilege to be choosey if they so desire. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/524 "2017-11-29T20:07:50Z")
I read it, too. I suppose I did repeat some of what you said. Manson1972, what kind of expectations do you have for a first date? Mine are that the could gets a chance to meet, and no one should risk much. The venue should be inexpensive and public. I’m thinking you have different expectations, somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/525 "2017-11-29T20:23:56Z")
I expect it to be a fun time that leads to a determination on whether or not it’s worth pursuing. The chance of intimacy is definitely the biggest factor to me on whether or not it’s worth pursuing. If there is no chance, then the worth of pursuing drops to zero. Can I be friends with that person? Of course. Meet up with them for friend type activities? Of course. Date them? Nope. Sometimes it seems, reading these threads, that some of you think that the only reason a person wouldn’t want to date a transgender woman is fear, or revulsion, or bigotry. The thought that anatomy plays a big part never seems to cross your mind. And it seems like some of you think that if a person DID date a transgender woman for a while and fell in love or whatever, then that person would simply overlook the anatomical differences. Well, that is just not going to happen for (a guess here) 95% of cisgender, heterosexual guys. People who are afraid, or angry, or some other type of negative emotion, simply at the existence of transgender people are morons. The same as if they are afraid or angry at blacks, or Muslims, or whatever. If someone says “I won’t date transgender women because they are disgusting”, then by all means, flame away at their bigotry. I’ll join you. But if someone says “I won’t date transgender women because (except those with the surgery) they don’t have the anatomy I’m looking for” then that’s not bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/526 "2017-11-29T20:34:42Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > How about Jewish people seeking Jewish people? Muslims seeking Muslims? Catholics seeking Catholics? Is that bigoted as well? Dating within one’s own faith community is a long accepted practice. Surely the one looking for a date has the privilege to be choosey if they so desire. If “bigoted” isn’t the right word, maybe “exclusive?” The trouble is that the boundaries between the two are fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/527 "2017-11-29T20:58:22Z")
I have no issue with your only wanting to be intimate with people who have vaginas. I just don’t think it’s a big deal that you might accidentally have a coffee date with a person who doesn’t. I don’t think that’s fundamentally different from your accidentally having a coffee date with someone who [fill in other trait that you would find a turn-off here]. And that’s the basic difference between our positions. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/528 "2017-11-29T21:03:04Z")
Well, I never said it was a big deal. Just that I wouldn’t want to waste my time on a “date” with such a person. As I said, “meeting someone for coffee” is different to me than “having a coffee date” ---
**Author:** ![Lickety\_Split\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/67e7ee/32.png) [@Lickety\_Split\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lickety_Split_1)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/529 "2017-11-29T23:10:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Actually, it’s extraordinarily easy. “Disease” does not mean “not comfortable.” > > Done. Actually, it does. Look it up. Done LOL Here…I will help ya out a bit, as it sounds like you need it. From the Online Dictionary of Etymology… **disease (n.)** early 14c., “discomfort, inconvenience,” from Old French desaise “lack, want; discomfort, distress; trouble, misfortune; disease, sickness,” from des- “without, away” (see dis-) + aise “ease” (see ease). Sense of “sickness, illness” in English first recorded late 14c.; the word still sometimes was used in its literal sense early 17c. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/530 "2017-11-30T00:40:18Z")
> [@Lickety\_Split](#): > > Actually, it does. > > Look it up. > > Done > > LOL > > Here…I will help ya out a bit, as it sounds like you need it. From the Online Dictionary of Etymology… > > **disease (n.)** > > early 14c., “discomfort, inconvenience,” from Old French desaise “lack, want; discomfort, distress; trouble, misfortune; disease, sickness,” from des- “without, away” (see dis-) + aise “ease” (see ease). Sense of “sickness, illness” in English first recorded late 14c.; the word still sometimes was used in its literal sense early 17c. That’s a dictionary of etymology. It tells you what words used to mean, not what they currently mean. Your own cite points out that this usage died out in the 17th century. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/531 "2017-11-30T03:48:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m getting sick of the endless cut and paste arguments, so I think I’ll just cut to the chase. > > You can’t do that, and say this: > > They are mutually incompatible positions. No, no they are not. Calling out dishonesty is not disrespectful or discriminatory. The fact that you think that transwomen should be allowed to be dishonest doesn’t make them less dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/532 "2017-11-30T03:55:02Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s now considered bigoted to not want to date what you don’t want to date? A lot of people like Una, she seems like a genuinely good person and she has presented a really good picture of the daunting challenges that transgender folks face in life so people empathize and sympathize and sometimes go overboard and agree with irrational positions out of that empathy and sympathy. I wish that transgender women were born natural women. I suspect that most transwomen wish the same thing. It would make their lives immeasurably easier but they weren’t and some people think we should all pretend and act like they were actually born women. I think society is willing to pretend in matters like where you pee and how you dress and stuff like that but it does not give them license to be dishonest and not be called out for dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/533 "2017-11-30T04:00:19Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > If everyone in a town is convinced atheists are actually Satanists who sacrifice babies, and will not employ anyone who volunteers the information that they are an atheist, and might come by and burn my house down if they find out my name - is it still “dishonest” for me not to tell them? > > No. It’s simply reasonable and prudent to do so. The same applies to AHunter3’s story about his blatant \*discrimination \*in the workplace. “Dishonesty” implies wrongdoing. There are many, many circumstances in which withholding information has the result of being a net good, and this is one of them. If you know that the person you are about to date would never want to date an athiest you don’t let them know you are an athiest, then yes, its dishonest. What net good comes of dating someone who thinks you are a woman and probably would not want to date a transwoman? I still haven’t seen a cite for the horrible things that happen to transwomen that say they are transwomen on their dating profile so that I can come up with 2 cites for the horrible things that happen to transwomen who DON’T disclose their status before dating someone. Who has gotten their house burned down or gotten fired because they were honest to the people they were about to date? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/534 "2017-11-30T04:02:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If that’s part of the standard profile, then I think you can make a fair claim that it’s dishonest to leave it out if it applies to you. But if you aren’t asked, I don’t think there’s any obligation to volunteer the information, and I don’t think it’s dishonest. I imagine everyone leaves out some details when describing themselves on a dating site. Some stuff is more material than others. “I used to be a dude” is different than “I smoked pot in college” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/535 "2017-11-30T04:04:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m getting sick of the endless cut and paste arguments, so I think I’ll just cut to the chase. I’m can’t keep up the back-and-forth with him. There can be no meeting of the minds, and there’s nothing more to be served with each of us hammering away at each other. He cannot accept my viewpoint and vice-versa, and I’m actually taking time from my charity advocacy work to continue this fight, so I’m out for now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/536 "2017-11-30T04:05:47Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Tinder gives you photos and damn little else to go on and you do your own matching after an initial linking mechanism based on little more than “I am a man seeking women” vs “I am a woman seeking men” and perhaps age and general location. … > I do not think that someone using a dating site along the lines of Tinder, who then picks somone out (or gets picked out by someone) and they exchange a couple “Hey what’s up. Hey you doing anything tomorrow, wanna meet up for lunch or something?” type messages and then meet in person has any semblance of a reasonable expectation that the other person is going to tell them that they are transgender (or, for that matter, that they don’t wish to date a person who is transgender). This sounds like exceptionally risky behaviour for someone that is transgender if the fear of violence is as real as it seems to be. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/537 "2017-11-30T14:03:30Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m can’t keep up the back-and-forth with him. There can be no meeting of the minds, and there’s nothing more to be served with each of us hammering away at each other. He cannot accept my viewpoint and vice-versa, and I’m actually taking time from my charity advocacy work to continue this fight, so I’m out for now. Yes, logic and reason frequently reaches an impasse with emotion driven feeling based arguments. I remember a time when logic and reason were the pillars of liberal thought while emotion and feelings were the backbone of conservative thought. I suppose I switches back and forth from time to time. Its not really a back and forth, its me saying that dishonesty is dishonest and your side coming up with arguments for why dishonesty isn’t dishonest because: Its private medical information: WTF? You think your gender is medical information now? You can’t hide behind HIPAA. Transwomen are subject to violence: I still haven’t seen a single cite that a transwoman was subjected to violence because they disclosed their trans status on a dating site BEFORE a date. Utilitarian arguments don’t apply because I cannot tell you the exact percentage at which the burden will shift from transexuals to those who don’t want to date transexuals: I’m still waiting for a reason why this isn’t a continuum fallacy. I mean you posted this argument half a dozen times and then never came back to after I pointed out that this was acontinuum fallacy. And finally, anyone that doesn’t agree with your side is a virulent bigot that is trying to force you to do something: No, I’m just criticizing dishonesty and the incredible level of moral flexibility we display in cases like this. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/538 "2017-11-30T14:25:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you know that the person you are about to date would never want to date an athiest you don’t let them know you are an athiest, then yes, its dishonest. > > What net good comes of dating someone who thinks you are a woman and probably would not want to date a transwoman? > … Yes, if you know that someone would never want to date a transwomen it is stupid to go out on a date with them. Has it occurred to you that some men must be willing to date transwomen? I know this, because I know at least one. (I know a lot more women willing to date transmen, for whatever reason.) I would assume that’s the men a transwomen is looking for. But there are likely more men who haven’t really thought about it, and might think, “ug, no” in the abstract, but think “huh, she looks hot, she seems nice, maybe I should give it a try” in a particular case faced with a particular transwomen. I don’t think anyone has argued that a transwomen should never ever reveal her status. But it seems perfectly reasonable to me that she might feel it makes sense to reveal it in the chit chat setting up the first date, or in person, at that low-expectation, getting-to-know-you coffee date, rather than posting it on the profile. I would expect that some transwomen might go to a first date, think, “holy shit, this guy isn’t safe” and just ghost him rather than ever tell him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/539 "2017-11-30T18:29:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, if you know that someone would never want to date a transwomen it is stupid to go out on a date with them. > > Has it occurred to you that some men must be willing to date transwomen? I know this, because I know at least one. That’s why I say “probably” because it is only about 80%+ of the population that would not date a transexual. > [@](#): > > (I know a lot more women willing to date transmen, for whatever reason.) > > I would assume that’s the men a transwomen is looking for. But there are likely more men who haven’t really thought about it, and might think, “ug, no” in the abstract, but think “huh, she looks hot, she seems nice, maybe I should give it a try” in a particular case faced with a particular transwomen. Those men would respond to a transwoman identifying themselves upfront. Dating someone hoping that they grow attached enough to you that they overlook that you are a transwoman seems like a likely path for all that violence against transsexuals we hear about. > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone has argued that a transwomen should never ever reveal her status. But it seems perfectly reasonable to me that she might feel it makes sense to reveal it in the chit chat setting up the first date, or in person, at that low-expectation, getting-to-know-you coffee date, rather than posting it on the profile. I would expect that some transwomen might go to a first date, think, “holy shit, this guy isn’t safe” and just ghost him rather than ever tell him. I didn’t say it has to be in the profile. I said it should be before the first date. Do people really just see a picture online and go out on a date without getting to know them even a little bit? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/540 "2017-11-30T18:45:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, no they are not. Calling out dishonesty is not disrespectful or discriminatory. The fact that you think that transwomen should be allowed to be dishonest doesn’t make them less dishonest. Libeling trans people as “dishonest” is not being respectful to them. Insisting that they bear additional burdens not borne by cisgender people is discriminatory. Misrepresenting my argument as, “You think transwomen should be allowed to be dishonest,” is also not respectful. I am not arguing that it’s okay for trans people to be dishonest. I’m arguing that they are not being dishonest at all. If you can’t (or won’t) figure out that distinction by yourself, there’s not much point trying to talk to you further. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/541 "2017-11-30T19:51:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you know that the person you are about to date would never want to date an athiest you don’t let them know you are an athiest, then yes, its dishonest. > > What net good comes of dating someone who thinks you are a woman and probably would not want to date a transwoman? > … > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s why I say “probably” because it is only about 80%+ of the population that would not date a transexual. there’s a really big difference between “never” and “20% chance”. If you don’t apply for any job where you only have a 20% chance of being hired you may never find a job. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Those men would respond to a transwoman identifying themselves upfront. … > I didn’t say it has to be in the profile. I said it should be before the first date. > > Do people really just see a picture online and go out on a date without getting to know them even a little bit? Yes, some people go on a first date with very little before that. Others don’t. Or so I gather from my friends who’ve done internet dating recently. If you want to make sure you don’t waste time on a first date with someone you’d not find compatible, you should probably use the slow route. But I don’t think that every man who would be okay dating a trans woman would respond to a profile that says “trans”. People skip over profiles very easily. A lot of people comment on how they ended up in a ltr with someone whose profile they would have skipped over. I don’t think people are very good at picking each other with these apps/sites. That’s one of the reasons some people like to meet quickly – because that’s the only way they can really learn who they find attractive, and otherwise they waste a lot of time messaging people who turn out to just not do it for them. I suspect that for a lot of people there is actually chemistry involved, and things like the person’s odor really matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=28)