# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/702 "2017-12-06T15:47:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Tell them BEFORE the date. When many trans people have a negative experience (or know someone with a negative experience) from doing this, why would they think this is always a good idea? Some trans folks do this as a matter of course, accepting the possibility of these consequences (the most common of which based on the folks I’ve spoken to is “internet-outing” – that is, posting on social media or the dating message boards or similar that this particular person is trans and should be avoided), while others only feel comfortable coming out to someone that they’ve developed personal trust with. Why is that not reasonable? > [@](#): > > Please provide a cite. Its all anecdotal, but at least you should provide a cite to the anecdote. Its really not enough that you heard something form a friend of a friend. A cite for an anecdote? Does this post count? You can click on the number at the top. Multiple trans people have told me personally (in person or in online discussions) that they’ve had these sorts of experiences. > [@](#): > > Sure and that makes them dishonest. That’s fine, it doesn’t mean they are dishonest in all aspects of their life, just dating. No it doesn’t, any more than a mixed race person who passes as white must necessarily reveal their mixed race status before a date, or a rich (or poor) person must necessarily reveal their finances before a date, or a person with a disability (say a non-functioning hand) must necessarily reveal this disability before a date, etc. Not revealing personal details before a first date is not necessarily dishonest, and these examples do not qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/703 "2017-12-06T15:52:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Two reasons might be links that your yourself posted. They didn’t reveal it, they were “found out” and then got murdered. > > Had they told the guys upfront, the guys probably wouldn’t have gone home with them, and then later, after having discovered it, killed them. > > So: > > 1. Don’t say anything, let the guy find out for himself somehow, get murdered > > or > > 1. Tell the guy upfront, don’t go home with him, don’t get murdered. > > And you advocate choice 1? > > Strange. Your options are very simplistic. Ever see Boys Don’t Cry? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/704 "2017-12-06T16:00:27Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Your options are very simplistic. Ever see Boys Don’t Cry? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/705 "2017-12-06T16:00:47Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s crazy to me that you think it is more dangerous to tell before a date then having the date find out later and possibly murdering the woman. > > Especially when you posted 2 links that show how dangerous it turned out to be because the woman didn’t tell her date before going somewhere alone with them. > > I mean, did you actually read the sites you linked to? They did exactly what you claim transgender people should do, and they ended up murdered. I take it that you haven’t been reading my posts, since I specifically recommended a course of action (which has been suggested to me by trans folks themselves) that would avoid any such negative consequences – don’t engage in any intimate contact with anyone not aware of one’s gender identity, and feel free to refrain from telling anyone about one’s gender identity until one has developed a personal level of trust. Based on the experience of trans folks I’ve heard from, this minimizes the chance of negative consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/706 "2017-12-06T16:06:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I take it that you haven’t been reading my posts, since I specifically recommended a course of action (which has been suggested to me by trans folks themselves) that would avoid any such negative consequences – don’t engage in any intimate contact with anyone not aware of one’s gender identity, and feel free to refrain from telling anyone about one’s gender identity until one has developed a personal level of trust. > > Based on the experience of trans folks I’ve heard from, this minimizes the chance of negative consequences. Sure. And in the second link that you posted, the woman did just that. How did that turn out? If she had told him at the bar, I doubt he would have taken her to a hotel room and murdered her. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/707 "2017-12-06T16:11:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure. And in the second link that you posted, the woman did just that. How did that turn out? > > If she had told him at the bar, I doubt he would have taken her to a hotel room and murdered her. She did not do that (notice that I mentioned two things). Which is not to say that anyone deserves blame but her killer. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/708 "2017-12-06T16:16:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She did not do that (notice that I mentioned two things). Which is not to say that anyone deserves blame but her killer. Sure she did. They hadn’t had intimate contact yet when it was revealed that she was transgender. She didn’t trust him enough to tell him. Aren’t those the two things you mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/709 "2017-12-06T16:17:53Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure she did. They hadn’t had intimate contact yet when it was revealed that she was transgender. She didn’t trust him enough to tell him. > > Aren’t those the two things you mentioned? Assuming we’re talking about the same link, it was revealed through intimate contact. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/710 "2017-12-06T16:22:39Z")
According to the article, it was revealed when she undressed. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/711 "2017-12-06T16:29:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > According to the article, it was revealed when she undressed. uh, that’s kinda intimate. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/712 "2017-12-06T16:34:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > According to the article, it was revealed when she undressed. Claiming that undressing is separate from the issue of “intimate contact,” in this discussion, is a level of pedantry that negates whatever you are trying to claim. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/713 "2017-12-06T16:37:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Claiming that undressing is separate from the issue of “intimate contact,” in this discussion, is a level of pedantry that negates whatever you are trying to claim. Thanks for your opinion, but I don’t think it does. Undressing is not intimate contact. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/714 "2017-12-06T16:40:08Z")
LOL. Yes, getting naked (especially in a hotel room or other private place, as opposed to a gym locker room) is intimate contact. I figured that was obvious, but maybe some folks get nude with people all the time and don’t consider it intimate. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/715 "2017-12-06T16:47:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > LOL. Yes, getting naked (especially in a hotel room or other private place, as opposed to a gym locker room) is intimate contact. I figured that was obvious, but maybe some folks get nude with people all the time and don’t consider it intimate. Wow, I assumed that intimate contact required, you know, some sort of contact. But I can go with that, whatever. So now we have, according to you 1) Reveal when you trust the person not to tell people and 2) Before intimate contact (including undressing) That’s sums your feelings up, right? So, according to you, it’s safer for a transgender woman to wait until she is alone in a room with a guy, about to get undressed, before she tells him then she would be if she told him in a public bar before they went to his room? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/716 "2017-12-06T17:03:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Wow, I assumed that intimate contact required, you know, some sort of contact. In this thread I have learned that you 1. expect sex on the first date and if you don’t get it you’re annoyed at the other person for wasting your time, and 2. you don’t think undressing is an intimate act I am _so_ glad we are not in the same dating pool (I assume - I’d hate to encounter you by accident. Maybe you should put “expect sex on first date” and “nudity is not intimate” in your profile just to be sure.) > [@](#): > > So, according to you, it’s safer for a transgender woman to wait until she is alone in a room with a guy, about to get undressed, before she tells him then she would be if she told him in a public bar before they went to his room? I think most of us think waiting for “alone in the room before just before sexy times” is a bit late. I think what at least some of us are saying is that the revelation should occur some time before undressing and sex/playtime, but since quite a few people DON’T feel entitled to sex on the first date this can occur after an initial meeting before proceeding to additional meetings/sex. You’re the one assuming “first date” also means “have sex”. Drop that assumption and consider that there is a group of people out there who use the first date to assess the other person and sex comes later, if at all. If the transwoman has that first date and decides the person is incompatible for whatever reason there really is no reason to discuss the status of genitals at birth vs. present day, is there? Only if the transwoman thinks the other party is worth further encounters would that information become a consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/717 "2017-12-06T17:12:01Z")
To get away from the dating topic… I think quite a few of the transgender community are psychologically damaged and/or suffering from PTSD, and this comes from how society treats them more than from being transgender. If you’re treated as a crawling horror, abandoned by family and friends, systematically discriminated against, unable to find gainful employment outside the sex industry (for which you are further discriminated against), denied housing, employment, and so on… that is going to seriously mess you up regardless of why you are treated in that manner. Add in things like beatings and rape and the rate of mental illness and behavior dysfunctional is hardly a surprise. This is damaged inflicted NOT from being transgender but from _society_. Which, to my mind, is yet another reason why anyone transgender needs competent and effective counseling. If society was more tolerant there’s be less damage to transgender people and they’d be healthier overall. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/718 "2017-12-06T17:15:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Wow, I assumed that intimate contact required, you know, some sort of contact. > > But I can go with that, whatever. Did you know that you and I are in contact at this very moment? It’s not intimate contact, but we are indeed contacting each other in the present. Through the course of my day, I’m in contact with dozens of people or more without physically touching them. If we were having this conversation in your home, and you removed your pants, then we’d be engaging in intimate contact. > [@](#): > > So, according to you, it’s safer for a transgender woman to wait until she is alone in a room with a guy, about to get undressed, before she tells him then she would be if she told him in a public bar before they went to his room? Where did I say anything about going to a hotel room with someone? The main thrust is that the danger to trans people comes from anti-trans bigots who actively want to hurt and harm trans people, and will do so if they find out someone is trans. Therefore it’s very reasonable that a trans person might be very, very careful with their trans identity, and choose to not reveal it except in very controlled circumstances. And this might include never revealing it at all to a stranger, whether an online future date or some other stranger, as well as not engaging in any intimate contact (which can include disrobing and/or accompanying a date to a hotel room). All this comes from what trans people have told me, or from what I’ve read from trans writers. Here’s some more info about the danger of trans people being outed: > **[Outing Transgender People Isn't Just Wrong... It's Potentially Deadly](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/outing-transgender-people_n_58efb7e6e4b0da2ff85f09fc)** > > This week's "Survivor" controversy sheds light on a fatal issue. > **[Why Outing Can Be Deadly](https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/why-outing-can-be-deadly/)** > > The act of outing someone is detrimental because it is a violation of their privacy. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/719 "2017-12-06T17:18:20Z")
It is most kind of you people who are concerned for the welfare of transgender people and the bad things that might happen to them to issue your warnings and give your advice on how they can best keep themselves safe in a transphobic world. I’m sure they’re all quite appreciative. They may, nevertheless, not take your advice, and if this is all about their safety it’s their call to make. Now, you may think us cynical if we say we think your main interest lies _not_ in the safety and welfare of transgender people on dates, but instead with a sense of entitlement, that you think you have a right to know whether or not someone is transgender before even so much as meeting for coffee. And I’d hate to be thought cynical. That would be a total bummer. So I thought I’d come right out and ask: if there were no issues involving the safety of transgender people, if they were magically safe from anything violent happening no matter what, is there some point at which you feel like you have a built-in right to know whether someone is transgender or not, for _your_ sake, with no reference to their safety? At what point would that be? And what is it that you are being protected from by receiving this information at that point? Are there cases where bad things have happened to people who unknowingly went and had face to face meetings with transgender people without knowing beforehand that they were trans? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/720 "2017-12-06T17:23:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In this thread I have learned that you > > 1. expect sex on the first date and if you don’t get it you’re annoyed at the other person for wasting your time, and I’m fairly certain I didn’t say I expect sex on the first date. If anything, I expect the relationship to lead to sex. I don’t think I mentioned a time frame in which the sex has to happen. But if it’s not going to happen at some point, then yeah, I’m wasting my time. > [@](#): > > 1. you don’t think undressing is an intimate act And this is just made up. I don’t think undressing is intimate contact. CONTACT. It was right in the post. Here, I’ll quote it for you - “Undressing is not intimate contact” If I’m on the bed and a woman is undressing in the bathroom, that is NOT intimate contact. > [@](#): > > If the transwoman has that first date and decides the person is incompatible for whatever reason there really is no reason to discuss the status of genitals at birth vs. present day, is there? And finally something we agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/721 "2017-12-06T17:26:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The main thrust is that the danger to trans people comes from anti-trans bigots who actively want to hurt and harm trans people, and will do so if they find out someone is trans You are absolutely right. Therefore, it’s better to tell someone trying to pick you up in a bar at the bar, instead of waiting until you are back at their place, alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=37)