# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/722 "2017-12-06T17:35:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m fairly certain I didn’t say I expect sex on the first date. If anything, I expect the relationship to lead to sex. I don’t think I mentioned a time frame in which the sex has to happen. But if it’s not going to happen at some point, then yeah, I’m wasting my time. How on earth can you know if a relationship is going to lead to _anything_ unless you are at least somewhat in the relationship to begin with? This comes across as you saying you don’t want anything to do with women unless you get sex out of it. Are you sure that’s what you wanted to say? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/723 "2017-12-06T17:36:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You are absolutely right. Therefore, it’s better to tell someone trying to pick you up in a bar at the bar, instead of waiting until you are back at their place, alone. Or maybe there are better ways to find a relationship/sex than drunken strangers in a bar setting…? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/724 "2017-12-06T17:45:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How on earth can you know if a relationship is going to lead to _anything_ unless you are at least somewhat in the relationship to begin with? This comes across as you saying you don’t want anything to do with women unless you get sex out of it. Are you sure that’s what you wanted to say? I don’t want to be in a relationship where there is no sex involved. You can spin that however you want. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/725 "2017-12-06T17:48:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Or maybe there are better ways to find a relationship/sex than drunken strangers in a bar setting…? Sure there are. But it happens a lot, maybe you weren’t aware that people pickup other people in bars for sex all the time. Probably right this very minute, people are at bars picking up other people for sex. If a transgender woman is looking to be picked up at a bar for sex, then to me, it seems safer to tell the guy at the bar, and not back at his/your place when you are alone and vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/726 "2017-12-06T17:59:20Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > It is most kind of you people who are concerned for the welfare of transgender people and the bad things that might happen to them to issue your warnings and give your advice on how they can best keep themselves safe in a transphobic world. I’m sure they’re all quite appreciative I’m concerned for the welfare of transgender people the same amount as I am concerned for the welfare of all people. No more, no less. It seems safer to me for a transgender woman to tell a guy at a bar that she is transgender, and not wait until they are alone together in a room. See the second link to the news story that **iiandyiiii** posted. If that woman had told the guy at the bar, he probably wouldn’t have murdered her. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/727 "2017-12-06T17:59:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You are absolutely right. Therefore, it’s better to tell someone trying to pick you up in a bar at the bar, instead of waiting until you are back at their place, alone. Even better (and safer) is what trans people have suggested to me in these sorts of circumstances – don’t tell them, and don’t go back to their place. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/728 "2017-12-06T18:00:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Even better (and safer) is what trans people have suggested to me in these sorts of circumstances – don’t tell them, and don’t go back to their place. That’s cool too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/729 "2017-12-06T18:18:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s cool too. Better than cool – it’s the safest option – least likely to result in negative consequences, at least according to the trans folks I’ve spoken to. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/730 "2017-12-06T18:21:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Nope. You should. It’s an Academy Award winning story of a young woman transitioning to a man who has to deal with what happens when the companions of a young woman she falls in love with find out. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/731 "2017-12-06T18:25:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Better than cool – it’s the safest option – least likely to result in negative consequences, at least according to the trans folks I’ve spoken to. Sure, I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/732 "2017-12-06T18:34:17Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > You should. It’s an Academy Award winning story of a young woman transitioning to a man who has to deal with what happens when the companions of a young woman she falls in love with find out. I know what the movie is, I just haven’t seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/733 "2017-12-06T18:37:46Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > It is most kind of you people who are concerned for the welfare of transgender people and the bad things that might happen to them to issue your warnings and give your advice on how they can best keep themselves safe in a transphobic world. I’m sure they’re all quite appreciative. > > They may, nevertheless, not take your advice, and if this is all about their safety it’s their call to make. > > Now, you may think us cynical if we say we think your main interest lies _not_ in the safety and welfare of transgender people on dates, but instead with a sense of entitlement, that you think you have a right to know whether or not someone is transgender before even so much as meeting for coffee. And I’d hate to be thought cynical. That would be a total bummer. So I thought I’d come right out and ask: if there were no issues involving the safety of transgender people, if they were magically safe from anything violent happening no matter what, is there some point at which you feel like you have a built-in right to know whether someone is transgender or not, for _your_ sake, with no reference to their safety? At what point would that be? And what is it that you are being protected from by receiving this information at that point? Are there cases where bad things have happened to people who unknowingly went and had face to face meetings with transgender people without knowing beforehand that they were trans? If someone, say, we’re looking for someone that they may eventually want to create offspring with down the road, then, yes, someone’s trans status would be absolutely relevant. Maybe not in the dating profile, but certainly on the first date. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/734 "2017-12-06T18:45:34Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > …So I thought I’d come right out and ask: if there were no issues involving the safety of transgender people, if they were magically safe from anything violent happening no matter what, is there some point at which you feel like you have a built-in right to know whether someone is transgender or not, for _your_ sake, with no reference to their safety? At what point would that be? And what is it that you are being protected from by receiving this information at that point?.. Personally, I would want to be told before I learned it by seeing body parts. This would protect me from being rude. If I were young enough to have kids, I’d also want to know that someone was incapable of breeding (or incapable of breeding with me) before getting too far into a relationship. That covers a lot more conditions than “trans”, of course. This would protect me from wasting time with a partner I wouldn’t want to marry, or give me time to seriously consider the other options (adoption, fostering) up front. > [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t want to be in a relationship where there is no sex involved. You can spin that however you want. But surely you need to check out the other party for mutual compatibility? Surely there are any number of reasons you might not be sexually compatible with someone, many of which you wouldn’t know about until you met. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/735 "2017-12-06T18:48:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t want to be in a relationship where there is no sex involved. You can spin that however you want. So… you wouldn’t want to work with a women in a professional capacity because you’d get no sex out of that relationship? You wouldn’t want to be friendly with the woman living next door to you because you’d get no sex out of that relationship? You wouldn’t want to see a woman doctor because you’d get no sex out of the relationship? That’s what you’re saying when you flat out say “no relationship with a woman without sex in it”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/736 "2017-12-06T19:01:28Z")
Actually, that’s NOT what I’m saying. I’m sure you know what definition of “relationship” I mean there. Trying to say it means “seeing a woman doctor in a medical relationship” is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/737 "2017-12-06T19:04:56Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But surely you need to check out the other party for mutual compatibility? Surely there are any number of reasons you might not be sexually compatible with someone, many of which you wouldn’t know about until you met. I can’t think of too many reasons. “Not having sex until marriage” would be one, since I’m never getting married again. If I dated a woman for a while, and finally things were going to get intimate and then she said “Oh, we can’t have sex. I’m not having sex until I get married” I would feel the exact same way as I would if she said “Sorry, I don’t have a vagina” and then I would stop dating her. As I stated numerous other times, it has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with sex and anatomy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/738 "2017-12-06T21:52:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sure, I agree with that. Then it sounds like you pretty much agree with my original position: that it’s entirely reasonable for a trans person to not inform online-met dates their trans identity at first, as well as not engage in any intimate acts or private behavior, until they’re entirely comfortable that they are trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/739 "2017-12-07T03:05:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would suggest that lots of folks here should try talking to trans people personally. And perhaps take into account that there are trans people in this very thread, and they know nigh-infinite more about being trans than you do (or I do). I’m not going to try to tell an Asian person what the best way for Asian people to get into college, or meet girls, or whatever, because that would be _absolutely fucking ridiculous_. It’s crazy to me that so many cis people think that they can reasonably dictate what trans people should/must do in circumstances in which they couldn’t possibly have relevant experience. Who’s dictating? I’m asking for a cite that backs up the claims being made here. These claims are the foundation of the argument for why it is OK for transwomen to be dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/740 "2017-12-07T03:08:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > These claims are the foundation of the argument for why it is OK for transwomen to be dishonest. No, they aren’t, because that’s not an argument anyone in this thread is making. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/741 "2017-12-07T03:13:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When many trans people have a negative experience (or know someone with a negative experience) from doing this, why would they think this is always a good idea? Some trans folks do this as a matter of course, accepting the possibility of these consequences (the most common of which based on the folks I’ve spoken to is “internet-outing” – that is, posting on social media or the dating message boards or similar that this particular person is trans and should be avoided), while others only feel comfortable coming out to someone that they’ve developed personal trust with. > > Why is that not reasonable? Wait, if you are on a dating site as a trans person why would anyone need to out you on the dating site as a trans person. They already know because its on your profile. What I am looking for is a cite to the horrible consequences you claimed earlier on. You know. People getting murdered and fired because they disclosed their trans status on a dating site profile. > [@](#): > > A cite for an anecdote? > [@](#): > > Does this post count? no > [@](#): > > You can click on the number at the top. Multiple trans people have told me personally (in person or in online discussions) that they’ve had these sorts of experiences. That’s not anecdote, that’s hearsay. But I am starting to sense that you might not be able to locate that cite of even one transperson getting murdered because they disclosed their trans status on their dating profile. > [@](#): > > No it doesn’t, any more than a mixed race person who passes as white must necessarily reveal their mixed race status before a date, or a rich (or poor) person must necessarily reveal their finances before a date, or a person with a disability (say a non-functioning hand) must necessarily reveal this disability before a date, etc. Not revealing personal details before a first date is not necessarily dishonest, and these examples do not qualify. So what race is 0.5% of the population that 80% of the population doesn’t want to date? This is decidedly not like race. This is like being transgender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=38)