# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/822 "2017-12-18T21:53:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > When you come off puberty blockers you… go through puberty. > > Seriously, these drugs are not new and they have other uses besides trans gender treatment, such as the previously mentioned precocious puberty as well as certain hormone-stimulated cancers and reproductive dysfunctions. They’ve been used for decades. Doctors actually do have a pretty good idea of their effects and side effects. I should have said, is not clear TO ME what happens if you come off puberty blockers at 18 or 25. I have not been able to find anything describing the effects if you stop taking them at 18 or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/823 "2017-12-18T22:47:18Z")
What, exactly, are you expecting to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/824 "2017-12-19T00:05:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > When you come off puberty blockers you… go through puberty. > > Seriously, these drugs are not new and they have other uses besides trans gender treatment, such as the previously mentioned precocious puberty as well as certain hormone-stimulated cancers and reproductive dysfunctions. They’ve been used for decades. Doctors actually do have a pretty good idea of their effects and side effects. Yes, that’s a good description. One of the wedge issues on this topic used by conservatives is “you can’t prove that the blockers are 100% safe, thus they should be banned.” The last time I checked no drug or treatment was 100% safe, and the blockers are shown to have a serious and significant therapeutic effect for the vast majority of the kids taking them. I have experience seeing this benefit first-hand via the clinic I work at, where hundreds of adolescents have been treated. Each one is tested and screened to look for possible contraindications. And if contraindications are found then the blockers aren’t used, or another formulation is tried. And if the adolescent reacts badly to the medicine then the doctors stop using it, or another formulation is tried. It’s sort of like witnessing a miracle, seeing the positive change in attitude and lifting of depression that comes from the blockers. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/825 "2018-01-31T17:23:17Z")
> [@](#): > > And here’s where you demonstrate to everyone here that you’re part of the problem. While playing wounded innocence about not hating people like me, you made a deliberate threat of violence or death towards a transgender woman who called you on some factually incorrect statements in an online forum. > > You threatened to either hurt or kill me over this issue. It’s one thing if you’re just one of the socks or a newbie; I can ignore those. But an established poster who knows the rules and yet is so seething with rage that they couldn’t even control themselves in Great Debates. No, you don’t have aaaaaaaaaaany problems with transgender persons. > > At this point, I’m done. I see people doing the game of “provide a cite water is wet”, others playing the “my arbitrary morals are my cite,” and like many trans threads online go, when all else fails have one of the players make a violence or death threat to create a chilling effect. I’m going to reply to this one portion because the this is the one that got me into trouble and the rest of your post is just you playing indignant victim. Having reread and thought about he post and the reaction I think it is important that I clarify. I did not mean to insult you or any other transgendered person. I had meant “you” in that sentence to be the universal you not specific to you **Una**. However, in a discussion about transgenderism I can understand where “be you man, woman or what have you” could be interpreted as “I disavow your claim to the gender of your choice and will purposefully derisive.” That is not what I had meant, but I can see how you could see it that way and so I apologize unreservedly for the implication. However, I never threatened to hurt or kill you or any other transgendered person. You accused me of “shitting on” those trans people who serve and I never did any such thing. What I had meant by that sentence was, “Had someone said the same thing to my face I’d have smacked them.” I don’t know how it is where you live, but here to tell someone they’re going to get dropped means to warn them that they are going to get punched. Not killed, not brutally assaulted, not any other histrionic imaginations you attached to the term, merely punched. So, apology and clarification given I opt not to reply to the made up horrors that your over-active and misplaced sense of martyrdom ascribes to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/826 "2018-01-31T20:16:45Z")
Soooo…Merely assault and battery, and not murder? That’s _totally_ all right then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/827 "2018-01-31T20:31:19Z")
You bumped the thread for that? ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/828 "2018-01-31T23:19:57Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > (Raise your hands if you were not aware that some transgender people do not find SRS a necessity for themselves). I’ve heard and believe that. It raises a question for me that I ask honestly and respectfully: I’ve always heard folks who have not had SRS referred to as “pre-op transgendered people.” Is there a better way to describe those who are happy living without surgery? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/829 "2018-01-31T23:57:40Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > I’ve heard and believe that. It raises a question for me that I ask honestly and respectfully: I’ve always heard folks who have not had SRS referred to as “pre-op transgendered people.” Is there a better way to describe those who are happy living without surgery? > > Thanks. Well, someone who has no intention or interest in an operation isn’t “pre-op”. I’m no more “pre-op” than my cheerfully neighbor is “pre-suicide”. You bring up a very good point though, and it’s why I myself do not use the term “transgender” but utilize “genderqueer” instead. If the transgender community were to adopt a term that means “not seeking to present as the sex that their gender is typically associated with”, I’d use it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/830 "2018-02-01T05:00:11Z")
A common term is “non-op”, which means “I have no plans at the current time to undergo surgery, for one reason or another.” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/831 "2018-02-01T05:19:59Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > What I had meant by that sentence was, “Had someone said the same thing to my face I’d have smacked them.” I don’t know how it is where you live, but here to tell someone they’re going to get dropped means to warn them that they are going to get punched. Not killed, not brutally assaulted, not any other histrionic imaginations you attached to the term, merely punched. > > So, apology and clarification given I opt not to reply to the made up horrors that your over-active and misplaced sense of martyrdom ascribes to me. I wrote exactly “…you made a deliberate threat of violence or death…” (emphasis added), and you’ve just confirmed that you \*intended \*it to be a threat of violence. Punching someone is normally considered violence, so you can cease with the tiresome and juvenile wounded innocence routine and claim of “histrionic imaginations” and “martyrdom.” I mean, like OMG, did you even read what you just typed? Cognitive dissonance much? Tell you what, why don’t you PM a Moderator and ask them about this, rather than trying to hijack the thread even further with your virtual shadow-boxing and flexing? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/832 "2018-02-01T14:16:33Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Yes, that’s a good description. > > One of the wedge issues on this topic used by conservatives is “you can’t prove that the blockers are 100% safe, thus they should be banned.” The last time I checked no drug or treatment was 100% safe, and the blockers are shown to have a serious and significant therapeutic effect for the vast majority of the kids taking them. I have experience seeing this benefit first-hand via the clinic I work at, where hundreds of adolescents have been treated. Each one is tested and screened to look for possible contraindications. And if contraindications are found then the blockers aren’t used, or another formulation is tried. And if the adolescent reacts badly to the medicine then the doctors stop using it, or another formulation is tried. > > It’s sort of like witnessing a miracle, seeing the positive change in attitude and lifting of depression that comes from the blockers. Real doctors don’t necessarily agree - > [@](#): > > “But what are the benefits and adverse effects of starting young kids on these powerful [puberty blockers] and then hormones? We don’t know,” says Dr. Frederic Ettner, a physician who has worked with transgender patients for over two decades. Since hormone treatment began for transgender youth, there’s been a paucity of data on what happens to them in the long term. [Cite](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/07/22/424996915/health-effects-of-transitioning-in-teen-years-remain-unknown). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/833 "2018-02-01T16:44:49Z")
Doctors are not a monolithic group where 100% of all doctors, everywhere, agree about any specific medial treatment or practice. Medicals standards are in part a matter of general consensus. Standards of care change over time too. In breaking news, water is still wet. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/834 "2018-02-01T20:37:16Z")
You claimed “the blockers are shown to have a serious and significant therapeutic effect for the vast majority of the kids taking them.” What studies have shown this, and what were the long-range effects? Isn’t evidence-based medicine the best approach? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/835 "2018-02-01T20:56:41Z")
Do those “trans” people realize they can only achieve their goals thru always taking special drugs? What if for some reason they couldnt get those drugs anymore? Or they require surgery? Sounds messed up to me. Why not just accept yourself for what you are? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/836 "2018-02-01T21:17:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Do those “trans” people realize they can only achieve their goals thru always taking special drugs? What if for some reason they couldnt get those drugs anymore? What happens if someone with epilepsy can’t get their drugs anymore? Or diabetes? Or high blood pressure? Or thyroid medication? Or… there are a LOT of people who take a daily drug for their health goals, the lack of which ranges from inconvenience to shortened lifespan to death. And yes, I think they DO realize that. > [@](#): > > Or they require surgery? Actually, they _don’t_ require surgery. On this very page we are taught the term for that: “non-op”. I’ve met transexuals who live as their preferred gender without having had any surgery, they utilize things like breast binding for transmen or clothing choices like false breasts for transwomen. Some of those people can’t afford surgery. Some people can’t have surgery for various medical reasons. Some don’t want to re-arrange their genitals. Unless you’re going to get intimate with such people you’d likely never know whether they’ve had surgery or not. > [@](#): > > Sounds messed up to me. Why not just accept yourself for what you are? Why do people get cosmetic surgery? Facelifts, nosejobs, buttlifts, tummytucks… Why do they dye their hair? Why do they choose contacts over eyeglasses or vice versa? Why do people get tattoos (or not get them)? Why do all those people with cleft lips get surgery instead of accepting themselves for who they are? Why does anyone bother with false teeth? Why dental implants over dentures? Why back braces for scoliosis, shouldn’t we just learn to love people with humpbacks? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/837 "2018-02-01T21:28:35Z")
Guess I should just accept myself the way I am and allow myself to die of Type II diabetes complications instead of chaining myself to those daily meds. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/838 "2018-02-02T04:19:13Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > What I had meant by that sentence was, “Had someone said the same thing to my face I’d have smacked them.” I don’t know how it is where you live, but here to tell someone they’re going to get dropped means to warn them that they are going to get punched. Not killed, not brutally assaulted, not any other histrionic imaginations you attached to the term, merely punched. > > So, apology and clarification given I opt not to reply to the made up horrors that your over-active and misplaced sense of martyrdom ascribes to me. This is precisely why you were warned and suspended previously. Your clarification doesn’t change the interpretation that was made in the slightest. I recommend you cease anything that could be considered a threat of violence against other posters else your posting ability will be terminated. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/839 "2018-02-02T11:04:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Sounds messed up to me. Why not just accept yourself for what you are? That’s what they’re doing. You should try to learn something about the subject before asking questions like this. If you’re actually curious I’m sure there are plenty of people willing to explain it to you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/840 "2018-02-02T13:49:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > What, exactly, are you expecting to happen? I don’t know. Is there a window beyond which you will never encounter puberty? Can you hold off puberty until you are 25 and go through puberty then? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/841 "2018-02-02T15:08:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know. Is there a window beyond which you will never encounter puberty? > > Can you hold off puberty until you are 25 and go through puberty then? First of all, I think it highly unlikely that anyone would hold off puberty until 25. 18 is the age of consent for surgery so I’d expect _most_ transgender teens to start with surgery then or within a year or two (provided all other relevant counseling and such has reached that point, but if they’ve been on blockers presumably they’re well along by then). Natural puberty in boys can start as late as 17 and takes a few years to complete, so for transwomen halting puberty until 18 or 19 is still within the range that puberty naturally occurs. It’s not that unusual for cismen to still be growing at 20, having their beards come in, and so forth. Transmen are a bit more of an issue, but not much, because 15-16 is, again, within the normal range for ciswomen to start puberty so, again, you’re not delaying by much outside normal range. Basically, doctors don’t even consider treating late puberty in cisgender people until they’re around 16-18 for girls and 17-19 for boys (unless there’s some additional medical problem going on). People undergoing puberty at that age should have a relatively uneventful one. As skeletal growth doesn’t cease until puberty occurs they may wind up taller than they would otherwise be, but not extremely so. As for effectiveness at later ages - when a transgender person starts taking hormones in their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s, whatever they are sort of going through another puberty. Testosterone has no trouble lowering voices or generating beards and/or male pattern baldness at that age. Height will not increase, of course, nor do male genitals spontaneously arise merely by adding male hormones, but even a very delayed puberty is going to “work” in the sense of inducing male secondary sexual characteristics. Likewise, for transwomen, the later they switch over the female hormones the less feminized they’ll be, but they will get breast development and redistribution of body fat. Again, the skeleton cannot be altered at that point, nor will it reverse low voices or entirely halt beard growth. These latter points are why blockers are probably more crucial for transwomen, because some of the effects of male puberty are irreversible or only “fixable” with great time and expense (like beard removal). Blockers prevent unwanted secondary sexual characteristics from arising, and extend the window for inducing the desired ones. Assuming someone is genuinely transgender and has been in therapy and treatment from the early teens I don’t see them using blockers into the mid-20’s, they’ll be getting whatever surgery is desired at legal adulthood or shortly thereafter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=43)