# Are all transgendered people mentally ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2017, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378 "2017-11-01T12:20:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/142 "2017-11-14T21:52:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So, to extrapolate, you feel that if they don’t feel safe, they should select “Woman” instead of “Transgendered Woman”? That’s up to them. Deceit is usually wrong, IMO, but sometimes it’s reasonable and acceptable, again IMO. Deceit is wrong in this case if they’re doing it because they want to date men who don’t know they’re trans (say, to broaden the numbers or something). It could be acceptable if they’re doing it because they risk losing a job, or worse, were they outed by a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/143 "2017-11-14T21:52:53Z")
[Who Do You Like?](http://ahunter3.livejournal.com/12928.html): > [@AHunter3](#): > > OKCupid, the dating site, has recently expanded their options for describing yourself. I can now identify myself not merely as either a woman or a man, but also as androgynous; or bigender; or cis man; or cis woman; or genderfluid; or genderqueer; or gender nonconforming; or hijira; or intersex; or non-binary; or Pandenger; or Transfeminine; or Transgender; or Transmasculine; or Transsexual; or Trans Man; or Trans Woman; or Two Spirit. Is that incredible and impressive in its flexibility, or what? It’s a real victory, isn’t it! Oh, and that’s just my gender and sex; for orientation I can specify not merely whether I am gay or straight but also could identify as Bisexual; Asexual; Demisexual; Heteroflexible; Homoflexible; Lesbian; Pansexual; Queer; Questioning; or SapioSexual. > > So now we move to the section where people position themselves for their own searches and for where and how they appear when other folks search for potential partners. I see that I can be looking for women, for men, or for “everyone”. And I can be included in searches for men, for women, or for “everyone”. > > _scowl_ I do not identify as “transgender” (although I’ve been told that I _could_, that I qualify). I think most transgender people wish to be perceived as the sex/gender that they identify as, which is generally (but not always) going to be a “binary” identity — either “man” or “woman” (or “male” or “female”, if you prefer). I, on the other hand, would like it better if I _could_ specify that I only come up in searches for male femmes or male girls or male women etc.; I do have more granular control over who I am searching for via other portions of the search choices, but gender is narrowly defined on OKCupid in the search portion. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/144 "2017-11-14T21:52:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This was mostly focused on gay men, in my understanding – gay women certainly experienced difficulties, but if I have my facts right, gay men were more likely to be beaten or killed for being gay. The social stigma was stronger against gay men than gay women, I think. Among other things, because of the visibility issue. Between women being allowed to be more affectionate in public with their friends than men, lesbians of a certain age being as invisible as any other woman of the same age, and lots of the people making ruckuses being males who only think of lesbians in terms of porn… the notion of “the lesbian next door” never came up. And if a woman was assaulted or raped for refusing to have sex with a man, it wasn’t specifically for being a lesbian, even if that could be one of the terms used as an insult by the attacker. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/145 "2017-11-14T21:54:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > True. And if I was on the “Men Seeking Transgender” section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, “Men Seeking Women” means “Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women”. So really this all boils down to you don’t believe I’m a woman. I’m either a man to you, or something else. What you posted above pretty much seals the deal as far as the discussion goes. Unless you believe I or people like me are “women,” then there’s no meeting of the minds possible. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/146 "2017-11-14T21:57:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s up to them. Deceit is usually wrong, IMO, but sometimes it’s reasonable and acceptable, again IMO. Sorry, but it sounds like you’re saying that a transwoman identifying as just a “woman” is deceitful, and I’m about 99.99% sure that’s not what you meant to say. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/147 "2017-11-14T22:00:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sorry, but it sounds like you’re saying that a transwoman identifying as just a “woman” is deceitful, and I’m about 99.99% sure that’s not what you meant to say. Yes, my mistake. I was thinking the options were ciswoman or transwoman. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/148 "2017-11-14T22:54:15Z")
Didn’t we have a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=834319) on something like this before? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/149 "2017-11-15T02:35:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I would rather know up front so I don’t waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn’t have sex with. Nothing wrong with that. But in that case, it’s up to **you** to make it clear up front that you want to know this, rather than expecting a complete stranger to magically figure out what you want to know without your telling them. > [@Slash1972](#): > > As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it’s easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say “Just so you know, I’m a transgender woman”? It’s not up to you to decide what’s “easier” for another person to say about themselves to a potential date. If you don’t want to date transwomen, it’s your responsibility to put that on the table, just like it’s your responsibility to put any other potential dealbreaker on the table. If for some reason you want to conceal this preference of yours from potential dates, then you have to take the risk that some woman you might want to date might be transgender. That risk is the price you pay for not being honest up front about what you want. > [@Slash1972](#): > > I honestly don’t see what the upside to keeping it a secret is. I honestly don’t see what the upside is to expecting other people to guess your dating preferences rather than being honest about them up front. You’re the one concerned about this issue, you should be the one to raise it. Why are you making such a fuss about being honest with women about this issue that you claim is so important to you in a potential dating partner? This attitude would be simply incomprehensible in any other type of shopping-around situation. If I’m buying a new car and I don’t want one that’s built in Mexico, for example, I **tell** the salesperson as soon as they start showing me different models that I don’t want a car built in Mexico. I don’t wait till we’ve found a car I like and taken it for a test drive and agreed on a payment plan and found out that the vehicle I want has to be shipped from Hermosillo, and THEN throw a hissy fit because the salesperson didn’t happen to tell me earlier that the car was built in Mexico. That’s just stupid. > [@Slash1972](#): > > What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that? Same good as can come from not disclosing any other item of personal information to some jackass stranger you just met on a dating website. Once again, it’s not up to you to decide what other people should reveal about themselves to potential dates. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/150 "2017-11-15T02:44:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Back in my day, I would go to a bar or nightclub and it would never cross my mind to say “Hey can I buy you a drink, btw I’m not into transwomen so if you’re transgendered, please tell me now” Why should anybody else care what crosses or doesn’t cross your mind? The point is that if you feel this issue is important in your dating life, it’s up to you to make that known, rather than requiring strangers to guess it. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > The burden is being placed on where it rests most lightly. The transgender person is what we call the least cost avoider. Like I said, it’s not up to you to decide what other people should reveal about themselves to strangers. If transgender identity is something you want to know about certain strangers, or if you want to avoid dating people who are transgender, it’s not their responsibility to guess that without being told. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/151 "2017-11-15T03:04:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > They’re not entirely separate, though. As general societal acceptance of transgender people increases, romantic rejection will naturally diminish along with (though probably not to the same extent as) violence and discrimination against them. Ok. And how is failing to disclose transgender stairs going to get us there a second faster? > [@](#): > > Well, that wouldn’t be very informative phrased in such a way, because AFAIK most transgender women don’t and never did actually identify as men. That’s why they’re, you know, transgender women. > > The correct way to ask such a question would be more along the lines of “Do you identify as transgender?” or “Were you female-assigned at birth?” I don’t think most people are going to know enough to put it in those words. > [@](#): > > And yes, **if it is so important to you to know such information right at the very start of a dating relationship, then it is up to you to make that clear**. Whether you do so by asking individual dates about their gender identity, or saying “no transgender women please” in your online profile, or whatever, the responsibility for clarifying your preferences rests with you. > Why? Why is it up to the other person to second-guess what **you** consider important to disclose **without your telling them**? > > That seems just stupid to me. **You’re** the one who knows what’s important to you; you should be the one bringing up the issues that are important to you. Expecting a total stranger to know what’s important to you is unrealistic. > So what? People withhold “material facts” of all sorts from potential dating partners all the time. It’s not their responsibility to magically know in advance which “material facts” you consider disqualifying or dealbreakers. Because, you are the last cost avoider. If the world ever gets to the punt where the vary majority of people are indifferent to the issue then you would be correct but until then, the burden is on you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/152 "2017-11-15T03:12:52Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female. What percentage of the population is not male or female (whether gay or straight)? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/153 "2017-11-15T03:26:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Why should anybody else care what crosses or doesn’t cross your mind? The point is that if you feel this issue is important in your dating life, it’s up to you to make that known, rather than requiring strangers to guess it. > Like I said, it’s not up to you to decide what other people should reveal about themselves to strangers. If transgender identity is something you want to know about certain strangers, or if you want to avoid dating people who are transgender, it’s not their responsibility to guess that without being told. I can certainly judge you for failing to reveal this to someone you want to get romantically involved with. You are basically placing the burden on the majority of the population to identify their VERY common desires not to date someone who is transgender so that the 0.5% of the population doesn’t have to divulge this material information to their prospective romantic partners. When the overwhelming majority of people (over 80%) would not want to date transgender people. You’re not really "guessing"that people might not want to date you. Its common enough thay ypu should disclose. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/154 "2017-11-15T03:33:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ok. And how is failing to disclose transgender stairs going to get us there a second faster? 😕 “Stairs” typo for “status”? If so, I think you’ve got it backwards: Increasing societal acceptance of transgender people is accomplished by society in general treating transgender status as just another normal variant of gender identity. The ideal state of societal acceptance would be something like _“Yeah, some women have or used to have penises, some men have or used to have vaginas, so what? Not my business what’s in everybody else’s underwear. Let people use whatever restroom they feel is appropriate for their gender identity, and stop worrying about what kind of urethral structure their pee is coming out of.”_ Your demand that transgender people should have to pre-emptively announce their transgender status to strangers at the very start of the dating process would be the **reverse** of this kind of general acceptance. That’s saying that some women have to be prominently flagged from the get-go as a “different” type of women separate from “normal” women (and ditto for transgender men). No. Transgender women are women. Most women have had vaginas since birth. A small percentage of women have not. (And correspondingly for men.) That’s just one of the facts about human gender. If you have particular requirements about genitalia or birth sex in a date, you’re the one responsible for making them known to potential dates, same as with any other particular requirements you may have about any other characteristics in a potential date. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > I don’t think most people are going to know enough to put it in those words. They’ll learn. It’s really not that difficult. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > Because, you are the last cost avoider. 😕 “Last” typo for “least”? If so, big fucking deal: tort-law jargon is not what determines people’s responsibilities about discussing their personal lives. If you ever start a dating site specifically for tort nerds, you can all agree what information is whose responsibility under what circumstances based on liability-law principles or anything you like. For ordinary social interactions in the real world, on the other hand, you don’t get to decide what other people are obligated to reveal about themselves just because **you** want to know it but for some reason are too chicken to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/155 "2017-11-15T03:47:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You are basically placing the burden on the majority of the population to identify their VERY common desires not to date someone who is transgender so that the 0.5% of the population doesn’t have to divulge this material information to their prospective romantic partners. In what way is it a “burden” to take responsibility for making clear what your **own** requirements are for dating? If you’re the one who cares about it so much, you should be the one to put it on the table. Your issue, your responsibility. ISTM the only “burden” is what you’re placing on other people when you require them to guess whether and how strongly you feel you need to know their birth-assigned gender when you meet them. > [@Damuri Ajashi](#): > > When the overwhelming majority of people (over 80%) would not want to date transgender people. You’re not really "guessing"that people might not want to date you. Its common enough thay ypu should disclose. Pfft, lots of people don’t want to date poor people either, but it’s still not a poor person’s responsibiity to disclose their economic status on their dating profile. Your issue, your responsibility, no matter how many other people happen to have the same issue. Once again, **why on earth would somebody who supposedly cares so much about this criterion for dating be so resistant to making that criterion clear up front?** To take another “preferences” analogy, if you’re allergic to some ingredient and somebody who doesn’t know about your allergy invites you to dinner, do you expect them to spontaneously tell you whether or not the food contains that ingredient? Or do you say, like a sensible and sane person, _“By the way, I should tell you that I’m allergic to Ingredient X and absolutely can’t eat anything with Ingredient X in it”_? The latter, right? Because **your issue, your responsibility**. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/156 "2017-11-15T04:05:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The ideal state of societal acceptance would be something like \*"Yeah, some women have or used to have penises, some men have or used to have vaginas, so what? Not my business what’s in everybody else’s underwear. While not effecting the intent of your post I feel that we need really clarify something here that helps with the ambiguity of the situation. We ALL started with two sets of organs, the Wolffian duct and the Mullerian duct. Without testosterone and without AMH, the Wolffian duct will develop into the clitoris and the Mullerian duct will develop into female sex organs. With testosterone and AMH, the Wolffian duct to develop into the male sex organs, and the Mullerian duct will degrade. Technicality at some point all of us had both options in place, and only the effects of hormones impacted the expression. In typical cases testosterone and AMH are produced only in the case of XY. We would all express female sexual traits in the absence of Testosterone and AMH. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/157 "2017-11-15T04:06:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No. Transgender women are women. Most women have had vaginas since birth. And some have had vaginas since birth but they’re connected to non-working uteruses. And? Some have genetic conditions which are not a problem if present once, but can cause enormous problems if present twice. And? Are we going to start demanding that everybody wear their medical history in an embedded chip, so we can decide whether someone is of interest as a reproductive partner before engaging in conversation? Talk about treating people like cattle… mooooo… Transgender women are indeed women. Intersex women are women. Women who have had a hysterectomy are women. Intersex men are men. Impotent men are no less male for having reproductive problems. And that is all the kind of details which no, people shouldn’t have to being their introductions with. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/158 "2017-11-15T04:18:31Z")
I’m grateful for the people here who consistently defend people like me. \*\*Very \*\*grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/159 "2017-11-15T04:22:56Z")
I’m pissed that it’s even necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/160 "2017-11-15T04:25:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No. Transgender women are women. Most women have had vaginas since birth. > [@Nava](#): > > And some have had vaginas since birth but they’re connected to non-working uteruses. And? For the record, it looks like Kimstu was agreeing with you, as in “most women have had vaginas since birth; others, more recently than that, if at all” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378/161 "2017-11-15T05:20:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Technicality at some point all of us had both options in place, and only the effects of hormones impacted the expression. In typical cases testosterone and AMH are produced only in the case of XY. And you CAN have XY and androgen insensitivity syndrome and still develop like a female. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-all-transgendered-people-mentally-ill/800378.md?page=9)