# Are American Car Companies making a comeback? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 31, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643 "2005-01-31T19:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/21 "2005-02-01T16:42:14Z")
> [@briham](#): > > If everyone listened to Consumer Reports the entire planet would be driving Honda frickin Accords or Toyota Camrys, and who the hell wants to drive a vanilla ice cream cone. Style means nothing to them and they do not take any chances on the improved American cars. The Accord and Camry are safe bets and CR has no balls. I’m not that huge a fan of consumer reports myself, but I’ll say this much–as a working mother who has to drive her family around, and get the kid to school, and get to work on time, I’ll take a safe reliable vanilla ice cream cone hands down over something stylish but unreliable. I’m really happy that the Big Three are creating things that are a little more stylish and interesting to look at, but that won’t win me as a customer. My needs are too practical, as boring as that is. I’d need to see big changes in reliability, quality, resale value, and the dealer trustworthyness before I’ll buy from Ford, GM, or Daimler-Chrysler. I think the needs of Boring Moms may make up a bigger segment of the market than you realize. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/22 "2005-02-01T16:51:26Z")
its quite obvious you work in the car industry from the way you talk. I’ll just say this once: until Detroit can find a way to care about people who **don’t care about cars** they will never catch the Japanese companies. To many, I’ll even step out and say most, drivers, the car is an appliance that takes them down the road to work at 55 mph. It starts when you turn the key and never makes mysterious clunking noises. That’s _all_ they care about. The do not care about 0-60 standing starts. They do not care about torque. They do not know the functional difference between 4-wheel and All-wheel drive. They care that once they’ve made a car-buying descision, it is something they will not have to think about for another 5, 10, hopefully 15 years. Reliability. BTW, I said that Big 3 can’t make an economy car that isn’t a piece of crap. You countered with the 500, which is a mid-size sedan @24K. Civic starts at 13,000. Let’s see Detroit make something that can face it head on in reliability. Then I’ll be impressed. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/23 "2005-02-01T17:38:52Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > To many, I’ll even step out and say most, drivers, the car is an appliance that takes them down the road to work at 55 mph. It starts when you turn the key and never makes mysterious clunking noises. That’s _all_ they care about. It’s funny you say this because it reminds me of a discussion I got into with someone who was deriding my Accord purchase. I said “Hey, it will get me to the grocery store.” “Oh, it’s great for the grocery store” he agreed with a total sneer that implied that was all it was good for. Like that’s supposed to be a counterargument? That’s not a rebuttal, that’s a confirmation, from my perspective. It was like we were speaking different languages–he didn’t get that a plain reliable milk-and-bread hauler could be exactly what I was looking for. I’m not going to pay for performance I’ll rarely if ever use. What a lousy, foolhardy investment that would be, for someone like me who doesn’t give a crap about cars. I’ve got other ways to spend that money. P.S. Wish you’d move back to Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![briham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@briham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/briham)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/24 "2005-02-01T17:49:15Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > I’m not that huge a fan of consumer reports myself, but I’ll say this much–as a working mother who has to drive her family around, and get the kid to school, and get to work on time, I’ll take a safe reliable vanilla ice cream cone hands down over something stylish but unreliable. > > I’m really happy that the Big Three are creating things that are a little more stylish and interesting to look at, but that won’t win me as a customer. My needs are too practical, as boring as that is. I’d need to see big changes in reliability, quality, resale value, and the dealer trustworthyness before I’ll buy from Ford, GM, or Daimler-Chrysler. > > I think the needs of Boring Moms may make up a bigger segment of the market than you realize. My wife drives our kids around in a Chrysler Pacifica. The Pacifica is rated five star for safety. It has 12,000 miles so far and seems rock solid. We paid one visit to the dealership for a loose clip in the wheel well, the car made a rubbing noise on left turns and a small clip had cracked. They fixed it quickly(free of course with warranty). The dealership followed up with a phone call, Chrysler mailed me a survey, they served hot coffee etc. Our Pacifica has heated leather bucket seats(front and rear), side curtain airbags, power liftgate, chrome alloy wheels, sunroof, abs brakes, Mercedes-inspired rear suspension, leather, 18 inch tires, all-wheel-drive, etc. Althought not very fast off the line, it is a dream on the highway and perfect for long trips. If we get hit with a snowstorm the all-wheel-drive and abs brakes actually make it a fun experience versus a white-knuckled affair. What comparable Japanese suv can I drive for $335/mo. lease with 15,000 miles per year? OK, so maybe I am in the 18 problems per 1,000 vehicles instead of 12 problems per 1000 vehicles if I go Japanese. But for what I got, the ride, styling and luxury, I am very happy. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/25 "2005-02-01T18:08:52Z")
Isn’t the Pacifica a $30,000 car? Isn’t that a somewhat different class from a Civic? And why should we value your anecdote evidence over **Balthisar’s** , who talks of Chrysler’s reliability problems? You also don’t seem to understand what Consumer Reports counts as defects per 100. They’re talking about door frames not fitting properly and light bulbs not working in rear lights. That is not at all the same thing as whether a transmission will fail five years down the line. Failure at one may imply the other, but success at the first says little about the second. You seem to forget you posted this in GQ. Anecdotes aren’t evidence. If you want to convince us that American cars really are the equal of the Japanese you need some better arguments. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/26 "2005-02-01T18:12:11Z")
> [@briham](#): > > My wife drives our kids around in a Chrysler Pacifica. The Pacifica is rated five star for safety. It has 12,000 miles so far and seems rock solid. We paid one visit to the dealership for a loose clip in the wheel well, the car made a rubbing noise on left turns and a small clip had cracked. They fixed it quickly(free of course with warranty). The dealership followed up with a phone call, Chrysler mailed me a survey, they served hot coffee etc. > > Our Pacifica has heated leather bucket seats(front and rear), side curtain airbags, power liftgate, chrome alloy wheels, sunroof, abs brakes, Mercedes-inspired rear suspension, leather, 18 inch tires, all-wheel-drive, etc. > > What comparable Japanese suv can I drive for $335/mo. lease with 15,000 miles per year? OK, so maybe I am in the 18 problems per 1,000 vehicles instead of 12 problems per 1000 vehicles if I go Japanese. But for what I got, the ride, styling and luxury, I am very happy. I think we’re on the wrong page here. The Pacifica, a mid-sized luxury SUV, is not a “bread and butter” vehicle. I’d hope Chrysler took some care building a $30K vehicle. Such vehicles do not make companies rich. I hope the big 3 understand that. Selling a relatively small number of Pacificas and Turbo Neons doesn’t really help Chrysler out. Nor does selling a 300 HP Mustang really help Ford out. The fact is, the big market, the ‘vanilla’ market, is the key for a company’s success. We car guys might bitch about Toyota dropping the Supra line but the fact is, Toyota sells more Corolla’s than Ford does cars (ok, probably not). ---
**Author:** ![briham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@briham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/briham)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/27 "2005-02-01T19:22:13Z")
> [@badmana](#): > > I think we’re on the wrong page here. The Pacifica, a mid-sized luxury SUV, is not a “bread and butter” vehicle. I’d hope Chrysler took some care building a $30K vehicle. First off, to those who drive an Accord or Camry please don’t take offense to my blast of CR. Of course it would be a drab world if we all drove those vehicles. Yes the Pacifica is a jump from “bread and butter” but here is my point. Consumer Reports bases everyting on problems per 100 or 1,000, very black and white. I need a family hauler for an affordable price, an suv is the only thing big enough or a van. I am not ready to surrender to the mini van yet. Yes the Acura MDX is rated high in quality, so is the Honda Pilot. Problem is I don’t want to spend $500 per month. The Pacifica is a great value even if it only recieves an average CR rating( I don’t know what the actual CR rating is on this car), I get a luxury liner family hauler for $335 per month with every available option and safety feature. After 11 months the quality has been great, no complaints. CR can tell me how great the Acura, Honda, Lexus, Toyota are, but I don’t want to spend 40 to 50% more on a lease payment. My Pacifica is a great value in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/28 "2005-02-01T23:48:35Z")
Here’s some data from 2003 (I imagine 2004 is still coming in). This isn’t secret data, so I can divulge it, but it’s on my employer website so I cannot link to it. It’s public, so it ought to be out there somewhere. Where you see TGW it means “things gone wrong.” ```auto High Sat. % Report Total Mfg. w/ 0 TGW TGW TGW ------ --------- -------- ------- Honda/Acura 92% 62% 1718 Toyota/Lexus 89% 61% 1765 Ford Motor Co 88% 62% 1936 GM 87% 62% 1771 Mazda 85% 69% 2250 DaimlerChrysler 88% 63% 1963 Averages 89% 62% 1857 ``` I think number three in the world isn’t so bad. I mean, it _could_ be, but look at the numbers. I have to wonder, though, how Daimler-Benz would look without Chrysler dragging it down, or how Chrysler would look without Daimer-Benz propping it up! It’s interesting to note that satisfaction numbers for Honda customers with zero things gone wrong screws up the scale for everyone else. As a former owner of two Hondas, I can understand it. Note, though, that 62% of Ford customers and 62% of Honda customers have reported things as having gone wrong. Amerian quality isn’t bad like it used to be. It’s on par with the Japanese, better than the Europeans, and the Koreans don’t even show up on the list. Okay, maybe Hundai or whoever will give you a 10 year warranty, but even with a warranty is sucks taking your car to the dealer and having to wait for it and rent. _The Koreans and Chrysler give you these long warranties because their quality suffers. They have to get you to be a customer somehow._. Granted, we’re going to hear all kinds of anecdotal evidence: my Ford sucks, my Hundai’s never had a problem. But that’s not good enough. Neither is Consumer Reports. What I quote above is an industry study – not my employer study – accepted by the entire auto industry. For what it’s worth, on my particular Ford product, I’m glad I had the extended warranty. Also consider that “things gone wrong” can be anything. The _vast majority of people that purchase a new car_ will never, ever have a debilitating problem with it, regardless of the brand. For the few people that have problems – debilitating problems at that – the numbers and the industry (including those manufacturers that have everything to lose) indicate that there’s no significant quality differences between all of the leading manufacturers, of which the Big 3 are part. There’s no Mitsubishi on the list. There’s no Suburu. So where’s this great quality difference? It’s all in the mind, based (admittedly) on a history of crummy, crummy quality. Did I mention that I was a proud Honda owner, not once, but twice? Back when the alternative was a non-Mazda Ford Escort? These aren’t those days! And finally, the Focus is world class quality small car. Just too bad it’s so small. Personally, I detest the thing, and I used to call it the “F\*ck-us” before I had a business relationship with it, but I do respect it. It’s solid, performs well, and other than when it was new has very good warranty statistics. ---
**Author:** ![chaparralv8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@chaparralv8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaparralv8)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/29 "2005-02-02T00:04:44Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > I’ve been consistenly disappointed w/ Big 3’s ability to bring an economy car to market that is not a total piece of shit. Is the Focus really the best Ford can do? That car is wretched in every dimension. If they think that Cavalier and Focus are getting that job done in the minds of consumers, they have so many more thinks coming it’s hard to even comprehend them. Well, let’s see. Consumer Reports rates the Focus’s reliability as “average”. It also rates the latest-generation Honda Civic’s reliability as “average”. The really bad Focuses were the first ones out of the factory. Honda built its last good Civic in 2000. The Focus is by a clear shot the best driver’s car under $16000 (a Mini is just over that amount). It is entertaining to drive and very quick and agile in the turns. It gets good gas mileage, very good with the Mazda-based “PZEV” 2.3 engine. They offer a station wagon. How is the Focus not competitive? EVO magazine said that if “a 1.6 Focus is what Mr. Average drives, Mr. Average should do more trackdays”. Of course, the Cavalier is total garbage and worth less than $5000 when it leaves the lot. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/30 "2005-02-02T01:46:22Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > The _vast majority of people that purchase a new car_ will never, ever have a debilitating problem with it, regardless of the brand. True, but there are also non-TGW issues, such as workmanship, materials, and overall satisfaction of use. _Sample anecdote:_ My father’s previous car was a Saturn. My brother had gotten one, and he was sufficiently impressed with the make and finish to get one for himself. It never had any major problems, but after a few years, the upholstery was worn thin, the chrome had flaked off, the finish had dulled, and there was an assortment of wind noise and minor creaks while driving. He treated it no different that his other cars, but after six years it looked like it was fifteen. Again, no major problems, but the workmanship just wasn’t quite there. He now drives a Honda Civic Hybrid, by the way. And I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t last ten years, easily. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/31 "2005-02-02T05:57:42Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > I’ve been consistenly disappointed w/ Big 3’s ability to bring an economy car to market that is not a total piece of shit. Is the Focus really the best Ford can do? That car is wretched in every dimension. Honestly, Toyota isn’t getting rich selling gazillions of Tundras, so its not like the new F-150 is pulling something out from under them (AFAIK, F-150 has consistenly been the best-selling truck in the US, Toyota didn’t have a heavy-duty truck until quite recently, I don’t think Honda has one at all). They’re selling Camries by the metric asston and until Big 3 has a car to go head to head with Camry & Accord, they got nothing. If they think that Cavalier and Focus are getting that job done in the minds of consumers, they have so many more thinks coming it’s hard to even comprehend them. The Chrysler 300 is mopping the floor with the Japanese mid-size sedans, and it has won just about every automotive award there is this year. The new Chevy Cobalt is supposed to be very competitive in the under - $15,000 sedan and coupe market. It’s a replacement for the Cavalier, and is supposed to be greatly improved. For that matter, the base model Mustang is under $20,000, and it’s going to fly off the lots and really eat into the low-end coupe market. I’m already seeing those Mustangs all over the city here, and they’ve only been for sale for a couple of months. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/32 "2005-02-02T06:49:55Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > To add to **Flurb** ’s comment, not only are the domestic/foreign lines being blurred by overseas production, mergers and cross-investment are also tying everything together. GM, in particular, now has controlling or at least major interest in a number of makers, including Opel, Isuzu, Fiat and Saab. Ford now runs Mazda and Jaguar, Renault and Nissan have strong cross-investments, and until recently DaimlerChrysler ran Mitsubishi. On the 405 freeway in Irvine, CA, you can see the N. American headquarters of the Premiere Auto Group. The stone monuments are: Lincoln (natch), Volvo, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Jaguar. That skips Mazda, which Wikipedia says is owne 1/3 by Ford. I know they were putting Mazda engines in the later Escorts. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/33 "2005-02-02T14:11:13Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > On the 405 freeway in Irvine, CA, you can see the N. American headquarters of the Premiere Auto Group. The stone monuments are: Lincoln (natch), Volvo, Aston Martin, Land Rover, Jaguar. > > That skips Mazda, which Wikipedia says is owne 1/3 by Ford. I know they were putting Mazda engines in the later Escorts. Well, yeah, that skips Mazda. Premier means luxury, and a Mazda’s just a boring Toyota or Nissan clone. I think PAG has been re-arranged recently, as well. As per the later Ford Escorts, they, too, were truly great cars from the longevity, reliability, and engineering standpoint. Not such a fun car, but a perfect car for the segment. After all, they were just Mazda Protégé/323 carryovers (i.e., it ain’t just the engine). Before anyone refutes this, please consider that I’m not talking about the _original_ Escort design! **rjung** mention craftsmanship. That’s a big, big deal, too. You can’t compare a Saturn with, well, anything. Well, yeah, with a Cavalier, you can. For some reason, though, most Saturn owners just _love_ their Saturns – is it some type of brainwashing that’s going on? Oh, anyway, Consumer Reports doesn’t measure this so well. I do know, though, that craftsmanship issues are the number one warranty cost for all manufactures. _All_ manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/34 "2005-02-02T15:54:39Z")
Since this thread was inspired by the Auto Show, I’ll pass along the interesting figures on auto sales-- Chrysler saw a huge huge surge in sales in jJanuary in SE Michigan which it credits (rightfully, I’m sure) to excitement over their cars and designs at the show. It was enough to boost their national sales figures up 9% for the month. Ford and GM didn’t have any gains. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/35 "2005-02-02T21:12:53Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > For some reason, though, most Saturn owners just _love_ their Saturns – is it some type of brainwashing that’s going on? To their credit, Saturn’s customer service tends to be top-notch, and they like making folks enjoy the experience. When my parents picked up their new Saturn, the salesman rounded up all the other employees, who gave them a supportive round of applause and snapped their picture for the “Happy customers” bulletin board. And whenever they took the Saturn in for servicing, the dealership would bend over backwards to accomodate them in any way possible. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643/36 "2005-02-03T00:20:54Z")
> [@briham](#): > > CR can tell me how great the Acura, Honda, Lexus, Toyota are, but I don’t want to spend 40 to 50% more on a lease payment. My Pacifica is a great value in my opinion. Which is asolutely fine and right and a good thing to base your decision upon. But CR is not evaluating _that_. In any case, their ratings of “American” cars are steadily improving with time, while the ratings of European cars are suffering. I’d say yes, American cars are making a welcome recovery after some true junk in the mid-70s-to-mid-90s period. JRD, proud vanilla appliance driver [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-car-companies-making-a-comeback/287643.md?page=1)