# Are American doctors overpaid? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457 "2016-05-23T14:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/41 "2016-05-23T21:06:55Z")
[Average GP pay dips below £100,000 for first time in a decade](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11856441/Average-GP-pay-dips-below-100000-for-first-time-in-a-decade.html) ? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/42 "2016-05-23T21:22:11Z")
Those figures are for partners in GP practices contracted to the NHS, i.e., they’ll have completed their advanced specialty training in general practice. I sometimes get the impression there may be a different understanding of the job in the US? With us, the GP is the gatekeeper to hospital and specialist services in the NHS, the primary source of initial medical advice, and nowadays it’s GPs who commission hospital/specialist services and control the bulk of the funding for them. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/43 "2016-05-23T22:28:21Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Those figures are for partners in GP practices contracted to the NHS, i.e., they’ll have completed their advanced specialty training in general practice. I sometimes get the impression there may be a different understanding of the job in the US? With us, the GP is the gatekeeper to hospital and specialist services in the NHS, the primary source of initial medical advice, and nowadays it’s GPs who commission hospital/specialist services and control the bulk of the funding for them. Sounds about the same as a US GP. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/44 "2016-05-23T23:23:27Z")
Yes but it is only one part of many of why our health care costs so much. 826,000 physicians in the US. Assume 250k average salary (it obviously varies by field, but I think about half are various forms of PCPs and the other half are specialists). 206,500,000,000, about $206 billion a year for physician salaries. Is that a lot of money? Sure. But the US spends 3 trillion on health care a year. So physician salaries are about 7% of all medical spending. Basically there are 100 small things wrong with our health care system that cause it to cost 2x more than any other nations. Physician salaries are one, but there is no one answer. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/45 "2016-05-23T23:30:00Z")
The info I’m seeing shows UK doctors making 100-150k USD a year. > **[Physician fees and salaries in the US and other countries | The Incidental...](http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/physician-fees-and-salaries-in-the-us-and-other-countries/)** > > There's a new manuscript in Health Affairs on the higher fees paid to US physicians compared to other countries. Let's work through the abstract: Higher health care prices in the United States are a key reason that the nation’s health spending is so... [http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/) Edit: Ha, that first link verifies my claim that physician spending is only 7% of all medical spending. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/46 "2016-05-23T23:34:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, if you think that 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, an internship, a residency and much sacrifice of time and money during those 12+ years shouldn’t be part of the cost of medical training what’s your proposal for training medical doctors? You want the dope head who maintains a 2.1 GPA in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ studies operating on your brain? Do we really need to put students through 4 years of undergrad _and_ 4 years of medical school? In the UK med school is a 5-6 degree program that the equivalent of high school graduates can enter. It’s also must cheaper (at least for the student) thank in the US. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/47 "2016-05-24T08:14:38Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > In the UK med school is a 5-6 degree program that the equivalent of high school graduates can enter. It’s also must cheaper (at least for the student) thank in the US. - 3-year Bachelor’s degree (don’t forget our 18/19 year old school leavers will have specialised in their last two years at school, usually in sciences, and will usually need the highest grades to get into medical school - I’ve seen it said that those last two years sort of overlap with the first year or so of US university courses) - followed by two years of Foundation training in hospital (which is where the initial low salary quoted in the OP is paid) for the basic qualification to practise as a doctor - followed by further periods of training/study towards advanced professional specialty qualifications, while working in hospital or general practice, and moving up the job scales. So to become a fully qualified specialist in the £100k p.a. brackets and above may take as long as in the States? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/48 "2016-05-24T11:01:31Z")
In the UK are doctors considered government employees? They are in France I know. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/49 "2016-05-24T11:43:40Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > In the UK, for a six-year undergraduate medical degree (the norm here), the tuition fees max out at £9000 pa for the first four years, and then the subsequent years are funded by the NHS. So that’s about $52,000 I think. How does that compare with a typical US medic loan burden? It is worth pointing out that the tuition fee part of the “debt” is not debt in any normal sense of the world. You certainly can’t compare $50k of USA student debt with $50k of UK student debt. ([useful guide here](http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes)) In short, no matter how much"debt" you incur, you are only due to pay back a maximum of 9% of your earning over a £21k threshold. below that you pay nothing, when you aren’t earning you don’t pay, the “debt” is written off after 30 years in any case. at a wage of £35k you’d pay back around £105 at a wage of £50k you’d pay back around £220 a month at a wage of £100k you’d pay back around £600 a month the “debt” has no bearing on your credit worthiness So that may be one reason for the lower wages of uk doctors, plus the ever-present fact that there is no need for private health care insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/50 "2016-05-24T12:05:24Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > - followed by further periods of training/study towards advanced professional specialty qualifications, while working in hospital or general practice, and moving up the job scales. This appears similar to the U.S medical residency, but I’m having trouble framing a good side-by-side from this article: [Residency (medicine) - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)) ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/51 "2016-05-24T12:06:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > In the UK are doctors considered government employees? > > They are in France I know. Depends. Hospital doctors are generally employed by the NHS, although many are still allowed to take on private work as well (and are allowed to use hospital premises for their consultations, which I have never got my head around). General Practitioners (your family doctor), dentists and other local health care providers are normally self-employed (or employed by a private practice). They effectively bill the NHS for the patients they have, just like a supplier. Obviously what they can charge per patient is fixed by the NHS. Then you have freelance doctors/locums who bill either the NHS or the GP practice who they are sub-contracting to. We do also have purely private doctors who charge patients or insurance providers directly. Most consultants tend to split their jobs between private practice and NHS work, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/52 "2016-05-24T13:24:42Z")
The OP is largely asking for opinions, so IMO - no. For me, the cost of schooling is a separate factor, although the length of training required - especially for specialties, is relevant. I come at it from a few different directions. First - what professions ought to be compensated higher than doctors? My personal opinion is that physicians a “more valuable” and generally “do more good” for society, than most finance people, actors, athletes - who make far more. This gets down to the old debate of how much you feel a particular profession should earn (often applied to teachers and public employees.) To me, $200-300k is not excessive for someone who has such responsibility, and is held to such high standards of liability, and had to wait so long before earning decent income. A doctor who specializes might be well into his/her 30s before starting to earn a full income - irrespective of any education debt. I recall golfing with an orthodontist friend at his country club a couple of years back, and he commented on how few doctors and lawyers were members. The majority by far were “money” people. Most doctors and lawyers simply couldn’t afford it as readily. Is there any other profession whose practitioners are held to such a high standard of professionalism? I’m not criticizing med mal, just observing, the stress of potentially killing a patient, and then being sued for it, impresses me as a little different from someone who is simply keeping track of dollars on a balance sheet. My wife and I have undergone a couple of surgeries over the past year, and we’ve been shocked at how small of a portion of the bill went to the doctors. For my ankle, the price of the plate and screws exceeded the payment to the guy who spent 2 hrs cutting me open and screwing it in. If you are looking for excesses in US healthcare, I do not believe the salaries of doctors, nurses, and other direct patient care providers is anywhere near the top. There certainly are exceptions. Our system is skewed to overcompensate some doctors who specialize in elective procedures such as plastic surgery. All types of unethical doctors can profit from overprescribing their specialty. Those types of incentives and offenses are separate from general compensation of the profession as a whole. So I turn the OP around and ask, in your idea of an optimal society, what professions should be paid higher than doctors? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/53 "2016-05-24T14:13:22Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > In the UK are doctors considered government employees? Those employed in NHS hospitals and clinics are employees of the local NHS trust running the facility, not members of the Civil Service, in the way that, say, a tax inspector or a diplomat is. Doctors in general practice are mostly in self-employed practices, run by the partners but contracted to the NHS; some will be partners in the practice and therefore employers, some will be salaried employees of the practice, some will be trainees who (I _think_) will technically be employees directly of the NHS. A few general practices are run directly by the local NHS organisation and their staff will all be employees of that organisation. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/54 "2016-05-24T20:15:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are those useful barriers to entry or just roadblocks set up to reduce the number of doctors? > > I think that we can probably live with less qualified primary care physicians but those aren’t the ones drawing most of the money out of the system and frankly we have so many tiers of nursing professionals providing primary care that we probably don’t need to reduce the hurdle much. > > Do you really think we are being too selective in choosing our brain surgeons and eyeball doctors? > > We could save double that if we let medicare negotiate prices for drugs. There are probably areas where doctors are overpaid but as a whole they are not the ones sinking the boat. There are forty times as many primary care physicians as there are brain surgeons so any reduction in their pay is going to save alot more money than the more expensive but rare specialties. The only way to actually cut costs is to try to squeeze a little bit everywhere, there is no one magic bullet for reducing health care costs. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/55 "2016-05-24T21:16:18Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There are forty times as many primary care physicians as there are brain surgeons so any reduction in their pay is going to save alot more money than the more expensive but rare specialties. Not necessarily. It depends on how much you cut each physician’s income. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/56 "2016-05-25T02:25:07Z")
> [@andros](#): > > About [$55k/year on average](http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/public/residents-salary-and-debt-report-2015). Marginally experienced RN’s make that ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457/57 "2016-05-25T02:31:02Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I have been reading about the UK doctors strike, and saw that many British doctors make $35-40k/year. Here in the US, most doctors make well over 100k. Our price of healthcare is driving a lot of people to bankruptcy. I sympathize with both sides when it comes to the healthcare debate. My dad was a doctor – yes he got paid well but he earned every last cent of it and some patients not only don’t pay, they sue just because they had a single consultation. The overhead of being a doctor in the US is insane. Consider the fact that most students graduate with crippling debt ($100-250K), so they’d better damn well love their field because there’s no other financial recourse otherwise. That’s just the tuition costs. Then you have the licensing, the malpractice insurance, and all other sorts of overhead. Yes docs get paid but without that pay, they’d be in the bread lines with everyone else. On the other hand, the healthcare system itself is outrageously expensive and we’re moving to an era in which we have gourmet healthcare. We need single payer and we need to rein in the costs of higher education to make the costs of living more affordable. Being alive in America is becoming unaffordable past the age of 60. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-doctors-overpaid/755457.md?page=2)