# Are American elites trying to create a class apartheid society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114 "2023-09-14T19:01:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/41 "2023-09-19T18:57:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I saw the same faults in Andy Weir’s _Artemis_, which is another work I enjoyed Can you explain what you mean re _Artemis_? It’s been a while since I read it but I don’t recall something like this? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/42 "2023-09-19T19:23:10Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > A lot of what you described shows up in Stephenson’s _Snow Crash_ as well. I was gonna mention _Snow Crash_ but you beat me to it. Great story. Ref @Little_Nemo: Yes, libertarians are idjits. Although entertaining idjits in small, brief doses. After some beers. Kinda like True Believer Marxists, their ideas ~~would~~ might work great on some other species, but not humans as they are today no matter how thorough their childhood indoctrination in the Brave New Way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/43 "2023-09-19T20:21:58Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > A lot of what you described shows up in Stephenson’s _Snow Crash_ as well. I haven’t read that one. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/44 "2023-09-19T20:24:24Z")
> **[Snow Crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash)** > > Snow Crash is a science fiction novel by the American writer Neal Stephenson, published in 1992. Like many of Stephenson's novels, its themes include history, linguistics, anthropology, archaeology, religion, computer science, politics, cryptography, memetics, and philosophy.\[not verified in body\] > In his 1999 essay "In the Beginning... Was the Command Line", Stephenson explained the title of the novel as his term for a particular software failure mode on the early Macintosh computer. Stephenson ... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/45 "2023-09-19T20:37:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Can you explain what you mean re _Artemis_? It’s been a while since I read it but I don’t recall something like this? I haven’t read it in a few years but as I recall, “law enforcement” in Artemis consisted of essentially two people. There was an administrator Fidelis Ngugi, who apparently had the power to make up any rules she wished, and an enforcer Rudy DuBois, who would beat up anyone who broke the rules. And if Rudy beat somebody up, apparently everybody including the guy who got beat up, agreed that it was okay because he shouldn’t have broken the rules. The protagonist is Jazz Bashara, who is a smuggler. Smuggling is against the rules but Ngugi doesn’t send Rudy to beat Jazz up because apparently Jazz is only breaking an acceptable amount of rules. This is explicitly said in the book. There’s a rival criminal who wants to eliminate Jazz and set up a larger smuggling operation. Jazz is able to defeat him and after she does so, Ngugi tells her that she was secretly helping Jazz because Jazz is a small time smuggler and Ngugi feels some amount of smuggling is okay. But apparently only if it’s illegal but Ngugi doesn’t choose to legalize the import of the goods that Jazz is smuggling in. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/46 "2023-09-19T20:58:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The protagonist is Jazz Bashara, who is a smuggler. Smuggling is against the rules but Ngugi doesn’t send Rudy to beat Jazz up because apparently Jazz is only breaking an acceptable amount of rules. This is explicitly said in the book. There’s a rival criminal who wants to eliminate Jazz and set up a larger smuggling operation. Jazz is able to defeat him and after she does so, Ngugi tells her that she was secretly helping Jazz because Jazz is a small time smuggler and Ngugi feels some amount of smuggling is okay. But apparently only if it’s illegal but Ngugi doesn’t choose to legalize the import of the goods that Jazz is smuggling in. This is true but I don’t think any of that is presented in a particularly positive light, in the sense that it is making the case that society should run this way. The lunar base in the novel is tiny and basically a novelty. A discovery is made that will make it economically viable, and it’s implied the station will grow into a full fledged colony due to this; the story in the novel is a battle for who will reap the rewards, and I don’t think the fact that the heroes won will mean that the station won’t change into a more mature society; it just means the people who live on the moon will be in the driver’s seat rather than the big corporations. Just my 2 cents, not that your read is invalid! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/47 "2023-09-20T11:31:07Z")
Both _anarcho-capitalism_ and traditional hippy dippy _anarchism_ are naive unworkable ideologies. Traditional anarchy removes all government and centralized institutions in favor of everyone just gettin’ along, man, Anarcho-capitalist results in a world where large corporations use their private security to enforce whatever principle best improves their bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/48 "2023-09-20T11:40:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Traditional anarchy removes all government and centralized institutions in favor of everyone just gettin’ along I wouldn’t know, I just subscribe to traditional _anarchism_, which is nothing like this ‘anarchy’ you speak of. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/49 "2023-09-20T15:53:23Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > It’s an individual choice, not some class conspiracy. And as long as the market provides alternatives to public education that may be better for your individual child and people can afford it you will find parents taking advantage of it, to give their children more opportunity than they themselves had. I think there is a lot of truth in your post, and I’m happy you were able to find a school that appropriately supported your daughter. I have talked to a few parents around me that have made similar choices. Missouri allows a credit towards a private school if you can show that your public school is not meeting your child’s demonstrable need w/r/t 504 plans (at least that’s what I was told, I haven’t looked into the full details). The issue I have with it is that rather than ensure that the public school is meeting the needs of all children, this system can have the perverse effect of making it worse. When many (or even most) of the students with a particular need take the money and spend it (plus their own funds) on private school the school loses resources that could be used to meet the needs of those students whose parents can’t afford to pay the difference between the voucher and the private-school cost. Those students left behind are now worse off (even if the school ends up with higher per-student funding, which is sometimes the case). Again, you 100% made the right decision for your family and I’m happy you (and the other families I’ve spoken with) were able to make that choice. But I do worry that in effect we are creating a system where families with the means required to make that choice can provide their children with a significant leg up on those that can’t (even beyond the advantages that come from being born into a family of means in the first place). Some of the posts in this thread are clashing in my head with the Meritocracy thread in this same forum. It seems absurd to argue for a system based on how capable an individual is as the “fairest” way to apportion resources while also arguing that those families that have already received a larger share of the resources (perhaps due to their own merit, perhaps not) can use those resources to ensure that their children will be, on average, more capable than their peers based on what schools they have the option to attend. If you want a true “merit-based” system (however you define that), then you have to have educational opportunities be equitable for every child. Otherwise you are rigging the game. If instead you think it’s OK to have different educational opportunities available depending on family wealth, then that background has to be considered when determining how resources will be allocated, right? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/50 "2023-09-20T16:09:14Z")
You can think of it as a “haves” and “have nots” but, private schools compete against public schools. Making the changes to public schools so that the needs of all can be met there takes time, and in my case longer than my daughter has. Sure I could have began pursuing improving the public education system when my child was born so that when she ultimately got there it was sufficient to meet her needs, but that wasn’t my priority at that time. Yes the public school system should be better, so that all children have those opportunities…better for our society, long term economic security, lower long term poverty levels, etc. etc. But this isn’t a problem that should be laid at the feet of the American elites. That’s the equivalent of saying the homeless problem is because of the people that own their own homes. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/51 "2023-09-20T17:43:00Z")
ETA: @Jas09 two posts up … Overall I agree with your whole post. > [@Jas09](#): > > The issue I have with it is that rather than ensure that the public school is meeting the needs of all children, this system can have the perverse effect of making it worse. This is the nub. Substantially everything difficult about operating a society comes down to a variation of the tragedy of the commons. The individually optimal behavior for any one player results in far less than optimal outcomes for all. Viewed both collectively at one moment in time, and especially when viewed long term over a span of time. The same point is made in the meritocracy thread as well. As you noted these threads have a lot of overlap in the ground they are plowing albeit from very different POVs. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/52 "2023-09-20T17:54:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Both _anarcho-capitalism_ and traditional hippy dippy _anarchism_ are naive unworkable ideologies. …Anarcho-capitalist results in a world where large corporations use their private security to enforce whatever principle best improves their bottom line. It’s immoral but I don’t think anarcho-capitalism is unworkable. If anything, I worry that it would work too well and we’re already too far down the path to it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/53 "2023-09-20T20:00:58Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You can think of it as a “haves” and “have nots” but, private schools compete against public schools. Making the changes to public schools so that the needs of all can be met there takes time, and in my case longer than my daughter has. Sure I could have began pursuing improving the public education system when my child was born so that when she ultimately got there it was sufficient to meet her needs, but that wasn’t my priority at that time. > > Yes the public school system should be better, so that all children have those opportunities…better for our society, long term economic security, lower long term poverty levels, etc. etc. But this isn’t a problem that should be laid at the feet of the American elites. That’s the equivalent of saying the homeless problem is because of the people that own their own homes. It can become a problem when as soon as anyone has a little bit of money, they put their kids into private schools or buy up additional properties as investments, reducing the supply for aspiring homeowners. Because not only do you know have a “gated community” effect where wealthy people effectively remove themselves from the rest of society. You have a compounding effect where wealth becomes concentrated and focused on maintaining wealth within a particular class. I assume no one is actively doing it to conspire against the poor. But the unintended consequence is that, at scale, these activities have the effect of reducing the quality of education in poorer communities and reducing opportunities for lower income people to build wealth by forcing them to rent. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/54 "2023-09-20T20:34:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I assume no one is actively doing it to conspire against the poor. But the unintended consequence is that, at scale, these activities have the effect of reducing the quality of education in poorer communities and reducing opportunities for lower income people to build wealth by forcing them to rent. However, the flip side in socialist or communist regimes is that the median wage or income of society is significantly lower than the median wage or income of democracies. While in democracies you may find greater weath gaps, the overall income of everyone in it, is significantly better then those in alternative societies. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/55 "2023-09-20T21:35:29Z")
Is it a strict choice between private schools and totalitarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/56 "2023-09-20T21:41:05Z")
I’m sure there’s some wiggle room there. I hear they even have private schools in China. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/57 "2023-09-20T22:32:06Z")
I think the key difference here is between these two viewpoints: 1. “Our public education system isn’t working. We need to devote more resources to our public schools. And by resources, I mean money not just thoughts and prayers. And because our public schools aren’t working at this time, I’m sending my own kids to private schools.” 2. “Our public education system isn’t working. And because our public schools aren’t working at this time, I’m sending my own kids to private schools. That means the public education system no longer affects me so its problems can be ignored.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/58 "2023-09-21T01:37:39Z")
With no disrespect to your excellent distillation, that same rubric utterly describes leftish and rightish thinking everywhere on every topic. IOW: > **Left** : It’s broke; let’s all get together and fix it. > **Right** : It’s _not_ broke. But if it is, abandon it; I got mine already. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/59 "2023-09-21T15:09:36Z")
That doesn’t seem to stop the left from sending their kids to fancy private colleges. I think it’s more like “90% of the people are lazy dummies. If I can work a bit harder and make some extra money, I can separate myself from them while hanging out with like-minded people who share my values and work ethic.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114/60 "2023-09-21T15:43:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think it’s more like “90% of the people are lazy dummies. If I can work a bit harder and make some extra money, I can separate myself from them while hanging out with like-minded people who share my values and work ethic.” That’s making an unwarranted assumption. A lot of the “elites” in America are themselves lazy dummies. They’re just lucky lazy dummies who are benefitting from the work an ancestor did. They’re not trying to create a meritocracy. They’re trying to maintain a system where people who are born wealthy get to stay wealthy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-elites-trying-to-create-a-class-apartheid-society/990114.md?page=4)