# Are american soldiers 'illegally' killing iraqi civilians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242 "2003-10-24T02:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/1 "2003-10-24T02:53:03Z")
From: [http://www.msnbc.com/news/983823.asp?0cl=c1](http://www.msnbc.com/news/983823.asp?0cl=c1) The humanitarian group Human Rights Watch says that Us troops are using indiscriminate force against iraqi civilians. > [@](#): > > **Is the military giving soldiers the impression that it’s OK to kill civilians?** > > That’s not an explicit message, but I think that’s the message that soldiers, unfortunately, will take with them—that they will not be held accountable for their actions. And: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Do you think the average American cares about Iraqi civilian casualties?\*\* > > ``` > Not enough. This is a far-off war and there’s a lot of coverage, justifiably so, of service people who’ve been killed. The media could do a better job of humanizing this story. > > ``` Basically it seems the army is doing little to investigate cases where unlawful killing of iraqi citizens may have taken place. This is widening the gap between U.S occupying forces and the iraqi people. In the end this only helps to foster iraqi animosity towards U.S troops, certainly not somehting that will be helping the current situation there. The report also points to a very wide cultural gap between U.S troops and iraqi’s which is causing increasing problems. One example is the US soldier’s tactic of placing his booted foot on the head of iraqi citizens while they ar eon the ground. This is a a grave insult to iraqi’s in a cultural sense. They don’t know that U.S troops do not realize this, and think they are doing this on purpose to humilate them. So I guess the debate is: Is the US army doing enough to investigate these possible illegal killings? Is the U.S army sending the message to troops that they can do whatever they want and fear no repercussions? And is the U.S media biased when it comes to iraqi civilian deaths, focusing on U.S casulaties a lot more? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/2 "2003-10-24T04:13:45Z")
Read the report of a journalist team and watch the video… it certainly seems like the soldiers weren’t overly concerned with what they are doing: [Article and Video Link](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/etc/anger.html) ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/3 "2003-10-24T05:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > In Baghdad, civilian deaths can be categorized in three basic incident groups. First are deaths that occur during U.S. military raids on homes in search of arms or resistance fighters. . . . . When U.S. soldiers encountered armed resistance from families who thought they were acting in self-defense against thieves, they sometimes resorted to overwhelming force, killing family members, neighbors or passers-by. > > Second are civilian deaths caused by U.S. soldiers who responded disproportionately and indiscriminately after they have come under attack at checkpoints or on the road. Human Rights Watch documented cases where, after an improvised explosive device detonated near a U.S. convoy, soldiers fired high caliber weapons in multiple directions, injuring and killing civilians who were nearby. > > Third are killings at checkpoints when Iraqi civilians failed to stop. U.S. checkpoints constantly shift throughout Baghdad, and are sometimes not well marked, although sign visibility is improving. A dearth of Arabic interpreters and poor understanding of Iraqi hand gestures cause confusion, with results that are sometimes fatal for civilians. Soldiers sometimes shout conflicting instructions in English with their guns raised: “Stay in the car!” or “Get out of the car!” ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/4 "2003-10-24T05:17:53Z")
Oops, I should include [the link](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/1.htm#_Toc54183720), that’s the original report. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/5 "2003-10-24T15:36:47Z")
Every single Iraqy that was killed by the invadors and since this illegal criminal invasion and occupation began, is coold blooded murdered under the direct order and under the direct instigation of the president of the USA, his government and his conspirators. No more no less. This is a foreign nation, invaded and occupied by a coalition of murderers. Sorry to say it like this, but that is the reality. You can’t change it how much some people like to do that. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/6 "2003-10-24T16:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, I want to hear those of you who consider homosexuality as anything other than just another variation on life’s palette Got a cite for that there do ya? in other words :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/7 "2003-10-24T16:04:37Z")
My, oh, my, Aldebaran is once again off into loony-land with far-out political ravings that would warm the cockles of his Al-Queda friends’ hearts quite nicely. Well, I’m sure that Osama would just adore you even more. If the USA is a “coalition of murderers”, then Aldebaran is an active terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/8 "2003-10-24T16:07:29Z")
That sux. What I meant to say was > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\* > > Sorry to say it like this, but that is the reality. > > \*\* Got a cite for that there do ya? in other words :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Maximum\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@Maximum\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maximum_C)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/9 "2003-10-24T16:37:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*My, oh, my, Aldebaran is once again off into loony-land with far-out political ravings that would warm the cockles of his Al-Queda friends’ hearts quite nicely. Well, I’m sure that Osama would just adore you even more. If the USA is a “coalition of murderers”, then Aldebaran is an active terrorist. \*\* Let the rhetoric war commence! You’ve both defined “murder” and “terrorist” so broadly that your opinions have lost all meaning. I’m not suprised to hear of civilians being killed. I think you expect that when you are an occupying force of a hostile nation. It seems obvious that when people dressed as civilians are killing soldiers, there will be death handed back by the other side. It’s one of the things you think about before you invade, isn’t it? Of course, I think this is one of the many reasons we shouldn’t have invaded in the first place. But now that we’re there, it’s inevitable. We just have to keep impressing American culture on them for a few generations, and then we’ll get a little isreal-clone that is in the US’s best interests. With a fanatical paramilitary element ready to take over at the slightest provocation. -C ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/10 "2003-10-24T17:02:46Z")
Unfortunately the more civilians get killed the more people will feel like **Aldebaran**. Nature of the beast I’m afraid. You mightn’t like if but that doesn’t stop it from happening. I feel for the young men sent to Iraq. They’ve been put in a very bad situation by their leaders. Sure some probably have killed people out of callousness, fear or just plain panic but that is also the nature of the beast. I’d be pretty certain that there has been several “murders” as well by troops but they probably exist in all major conflicts. Americans soldiers are no worse, in fact better, that a lot of armed forces around the world but that doesn’t mean they’re all perfectly balanced people who will always react correctly. They shouldn’t be were they are under these conditions. They should be part of a UN lead force that went in with the backing of the majority of the world with a very clear exist strategy mapped out. There are millions upon millions of people that feel the same as **Aldebaran**. Some hated the US before the war some after. Some will join up to help take down the “Great Satan”. It matters little how much the boys get support at home to anyone out the US. What matters is that there have been many incidents were US actions have been questionable. People will use those incidents rightly or wrongly for their own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/11 "2003-10-24T17:29:26Z")
Actually, I came with my European half to write that truth. The Arab half is glad he is not an Iraqi inside Iraq because I would have to kill every foreign occupyer that came in sight. Owning that to my invaded and occupied nation, my fellow citizens and my honour and dignity. That would be a disaster; Iwas never good with weapons. I always preferred the sound of voices and the humanity behind the reasoning that every life has the same worth and every human has the same rights. Of course my approach of things isn’t in line with the US reasoning and interests. I have a question: How come US’ers are so obsessed with their unbelievable expensive and incredible inhuman murderous wartoys, that they want to try them out where ever they can and even claim they have the God given right? Can someone explain this riddle to me? Thank you. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/12 "2003-10-24T17:32:19Z")
Forgot: Can someone explain to me how it is possible to say that my definition is wrong? Invaders of sovereign nations are mass murderers. Or how do you define a mass murderer? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/13 "2003-10-24T17:33:05Z")
“exit” not exist although that kinda works as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/14 "2003-10-24T17:36:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > > How come US’ers are so obsessed with their unbelievable expensive and incredible inhuman murderous wartoys, that they want to try them out where ever they can and even claim they have the God given right? Why are Muslims and Arabs all mass murderers who love to kill children and throw bombs around randomly and claim the “Allah”-given right? Can someone please explain this riddle to me? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/15 "2003-10-24T17:39:49Z")
Dogface, I suppose you gained that wisdom and that Truth that all Arabs are mass murderers who claim that they have the God given right… From the multiple websites where you get your “cites”? Care to join them with us? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/16 "2003-10-24T17:42:29Z")
Overlooked that you let “all Muslims” join the ranks. You must be born to be very lucky or a master in hiding yourself… I must ask you : How come you are still alive? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/17 "2003-10-24T17:44:13Z")
**Aldebaran** he got it from the same place you got your silly generalisations. He pulled it from his ass. Only he did it to make a point you didn’t. You do yourself no favours being as close minded about this subject as you seem. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/18 "2003-10-24T17:53:31Z")
Ooh, gotta love the characterization of a statement as a " Truth" – it just screams “religious zealot”. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/19 "2003-10-24T17:55:11Z")
yojimbo, Generalisatoins? What generalisations do you mean… The “generalisation” that the USA and their cooalition puppies invaded illegaly a sovereign nation and hold it occupied? That “generalisation” that they murdered thousands of people while invading and occupying that sovereign nations so and are still murdering murdering people in that nation? So how would you like to call it? I suppose you adore the term “collateral dammage” indicating that no harm is done because “not intended”? Well I’m sorry for you, but when you drop tons of bombs on a country for days and nights in a row, you do that intentionally. You know that your bombs don’t miraculously avoid killing people. You murder those people intentionally the moment you drop your first bomb. Why is that so difficult to understand? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242/20 "2003-10-24T17:57:42Z")
I think I’m going to have fun here… Some people already managed to make me smile with their predictable comments. Please… Can we have more. Salaam. A [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-american-soldiers-illegally-killing-iraqi-civilians/209242.md?page=2)