# Are Americans kind of forced to support LGBT standpoints? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430 "2018-06-04T20:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/181 "2018-06-08T20:04:36Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I asked if Obama’s “I believe marriage is between a man and a woman” was hate speech. This statement is what a lot of people, to this day, believe. Not me, but a lot of people. > > You said it was, and that’s why he stopped saying it. I am not so sure. I think it’s quite possible he stopped saying it because he simply changed his mind, or because it is too politically incorrect to say now. Not because it is “hate speech.” Right, he changed his mind, in the realization that the things that he was saying was actually harmful to people. I don’t believe that he ever intended to say anything hateful, but those who heard him say that he didn’t believe that their love was worthy of the same considerations that a man and a woman’s love is probably felt more than a little hurt by those statements. I don’t think he said it out of hate, but out of ignorance. Of course, at this point, there is less excuse for that now. If someone says, “Well, 10 years ago, Obama said…”, then they know better, and they are justifying their current hate speech by pointing out that someone said something like it in the past. > [@](#): > > You then followed up asking “Would you consider the statement, “There is fundamental difference between a white man and a black man, and that is why they should not learn together, eat together, travel together, or live together.” to be hate speech?” That was actually inspired by **senoy’s** “I think that there is a fundamental difference between a same-sex and an opposite-sex wedding.” as I wanted to get your opinion on that as well. But, I was surprised, as I was thinking that you would actually say that that was not hate speech, so I dropped that line. > [@](#): > > I said that it was. > > I then stated that I didn’t think those two statements were the same. You seem to agree. Perhaps there _is_ no argument here, but I am not convinced that Obama’s statement was hate speech. Then or now. I do not think that Obama said what he did out of hate, but that does not mean that what he said was not hateful, and if it is repeated by others, with the “justification” that Obama said it 10 years ago, then I do consider it to be hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/182 "2018-06-08T20:16:21Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > So, you get to tell someone what their religion is allowed to believe? Religious beliefs are unlimited. Religious practices, on the other hand, are subject to the law. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/183 "2018-06-08T20:24:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, at this point, there is less excuse for that now. Why do you think that? Gay marriage is the law of the land. I think a lot of people that may have thought as Obama did, are either indifferent because it is no longer illegal and there’s nothing they can do about it, or changed their minds for a myriad of reasons, or still think that way, for the same reason Obama thought that. What’s changed? It’s legal now, and everything’s okay. No human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… or mass hysteria! That’s great, but I don’t think that means that a person has shifted from “ignorant” to “hateful” over the last few years if they still think that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/184 "2018-06-08T20:28:11Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Why do you think that? Gay marriage is the law of the land. I think a lot of people that may have thought as Obama did, are either indifferent because it is no longer illegal and there’s nothing they can do about it, or changed their minds for a myriad of reasons, or still think that way, for the same reason Obama thought that. > > What’s changed? It’s legal now, and everything’s okay. No human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… or mass hysteria! That’s great, but I don’t think that means that a person has shifted from “ignorant” to “hateful” over the last few years if they still think that. Exactly that, people should know better. Ignorance is excusable when the information is not widespread. When the information is widespread, if you hang onto ignorance, you are doing it because you want to hold onto that ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/185 "2018-06-08T20:45:15Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. > I will not create art that is designed to celebrate a same-sex mating ritual, because unless the art clearly shows my opinion, it appears to show my approval. And my opinion is not what the customers want. Requiring me to create an artwork that appears to be an endorsement of a fake marriage is as detestable to me as making a MAGA painting would be to a Collectivist artist. To tell me my faith is illegitimate because it is unpopular goes against what this country was founded on. > > Is that clear enough? Perfectly clear. Allow me the counterpoint: if you are offering a service to the public, you are required to offer it to all members of the public, regardless of their race, religion, gender, or sexuality. If your religious “values” preclude you from treating your customers equally, you need to find a different line of work. Is _that_ clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/186 "2018-06-08T21:20:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yep-You either can’t, or won’t, answer the question as to what was the special design/message that the chef objected to. Willing to write “Here comes the bride” on the cake but not “Here come the brides”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/187 "2018-06-08T21:25:40Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Willing to write “Here comes the bride” on the cake but not “Here come the brides”. What I am asking is what was the message/design that the chef in the court case being discussed objected to. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/188 "2018-06-09T00:04:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Perfectly clear. Allow me the counterpoint: if you are offering a service to the public, you are required to offer it to all members of the public, regardless of their race, religion, gender, or sexuality. If your religious “values” preclude you from treating your customers equally, you need to find a different line of work. > > Is _that_ clear enough? It is not a service or a product. It is art. It is speech. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/189 "2018-06-09T00:09:25Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > It is not a service or a product. It is art. It is speech. Bullshit. If you called him up and asked if he had cakes for sale, do you think he would answer, “No, but if you wish to commission an edible piece of art I would be happy to look at a few of your sketches and discuss the possibilities.”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/190 "2018-06-09T00:17:07Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > It is not a service or a product. It is art. It is speech. Those aren’t exclusive categories. If you sell your paintings, your paintings are a product. If you open a store front, and offer to paint the portrait of anyone who walks in the door, you’re selling your skills as an artist as a device. Which means you can’t open a store where you paint portraits for people, and get to say, “Sorry, I don’t paint black people.” If you make the choice to commoditize your art, you don’t get to complain when its treated the same as any other commodity. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/191 "2018-06-09T01:53:24Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Should a business be able to refuse you service if you politely say “no” to their request for a charitable donation, you ask. Has that ever happened? No? Then your analogy is worthless. The things I’m talking about, like sports teams supporting LGBT rights, happen all the time. The ridiculous analogies you’re fantasizing about never happen. There must be a reason for that. Yes, because I have an imagination and can think of alternate possibilities where things like that could happen. I wonder how much court time could have been avoided through history if law makers spent an extra half hour contemplating alternatives when they were making laws? > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s because your analogies are worthless. Maybe it’s because questions of basic human rights are absolutely uncontroversial in a civilized society. I have a basic human right not to be forced to support your cause in pursuit of an activity that is of interest to me. > [@](#): > > But one might suspect from your comment about how “I think” that this a more enlightened world view, as if it was some arbitrary opinion, and one might suspect from your snide comment about how this is just “spouting all sorts of things”, and from your even more snide comment about the “nonsense” of a charitable contribution, that your real problem is that you just don’t agree with the USWNT position on LGBT rights, much like the woman in question who found it too oppressive to wear the team jersey, but had no problem at all taking the drastic action of quitting the US national team. That seems like a very strange tradeoff to make for someone who isn’t really against LGBT equal rights, but is supposedly just espousing some higher principle. Sort of like someone quitting their high-profile job after their employer raises a rainbow flag on Gay Pride Day. It’s not that they have anything against gays, you understand, it’s just that they’d rather starve than work for a company like that. :rolleyes: And my point exactly. You took how I worded my posts as an assumption on how I felt on this particular issue (IYMK, I am for everyone having equal rights. I am against anyone being a ‘protected’ group. Satisfy the former and there is no need for the latter, imo). If I am capable of playing soccer at a level that the national team wants me to play for them, then that is what I want to focus on. I don’t want to be distracted by someone asking me questions where I can easily put my foot in my mouth and end up being branded a bigot because I didn’t know the 10th letter after LGBTxxx… or some other lame-assed reason. I am quite capable of making a fool of myself in areas that I do hold some expertise in that I don’t need the extra pressure of commenting publicly, or finding excuses not to, in areas I am not. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/192 "2018-06-09T01:53:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Bullshit. If you called him up and asked if he had cakes for sale, do you think he would answer, “No, but if you wish to commission an edible piece of art I would be happy to look at a few of your sketches and discuss the possibilities.”? They didn’t ask for a cake for sale. They demanded a piece of artwork with their message, not the artist’s message. They could have found another artist who would create the message they wanted, but it was not for them; it was to compel speech. If you want a cake, you buy a cake. If you want the cake to be decorated exactly the way you want it, you commission it. Homosexual bakers have the right to decline a cake decorated with Romans 1:26-27. Christians should have the right to decline to decorate a cake with two grooms or two brides. To compel an artist to create an artwork that contradicts his beliefs is tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/193 "2018-06-09T02:02:22Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > They didn’t ask for a cake for sale. They demanded a piece of artwork with their message, not the artist’s message. They could have found another artist who would create the message they wanted, but it was not for them; it was to compel speech. If you want a cake, you buy a cake. If you want the cake to be decorated exactly the way you want it, you commission it. And if your job is taking cake commissions, _you take everybody’s commission._ ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/194 "2018-06-09T02:08:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Those aren’t exclusive categories. If you sell your paintings, your paintings are a product. If you open a store front, and offer to paint the portrait of anyone who walks in the door, you’re selling your skills as an artist as a device. Which means you can’t open a store where you paint portraits for people, and get to say, “Sorry, I don’t paint black people.” If you make the choice to commoditize your art, you don’t get to complain when its treated the same as any other commodity. It’s not about selling a painting, it’s CREATING a new painting with someone else’s message. What gives anyone the right to decide who is allowed to create art and who isn’t? Artists who create art that people don’t like should go out of business. That should be the role of the free market, but now it is the role of SJWs and unelected, unaccountable government agencies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/195 "2018-06-09T02:11:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And if your job is taking cake commissions, _you take everybody’s commission._ IMO, cake sellers and similar business owners should be required to sell their goods to anyone regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender ID, etc. But should they be required to make any imagery or words in decoration requested? I don’t think the law should require that. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/196 "2018-06-09T02:12:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And if your job is taking cake commissions, _you take everybody’s commission._ No. Only Christians are forced to create art for whichever tyrant walks through the door. Plenty of others have refused without having to go to SCOTUS to defend their right to free expression. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/197 "2018-06-09T02:17:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO, cake sellers and similar business owners should be required to sell their goods to anyone regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, gender ID, etc. > > But should they be required to make any imagery or words in decoration requested? I don’t think the law should require that. What do you think? THANK YOU! I can only guess that people who make these arguments are not artists and have never been in the situation. I can honestly say I have not (I have been an artist and I am a musician) but we have had to give up what could be a lucrative business (music for weddings) because we cannot go through the nightmare of SJW tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/198 "2018-06-09T02:20:29Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > They didn’t ask for a cake for sale. They demanded a piece of artwork with their message, not the artist’s message. What message was it? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/199 "2018-06-09T02:21:19Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Homosexual bakers \ That’s a thing, for reals? Where you live? ETA: checking [YellowPages.com](http://YellowPages.com), but no go. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/200 "2018-06-09T02:24:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > That’s a thing, for reals? Where you live? They are required to put rainbow stickers on their windows (and wear patches on their arms)…:eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=11)