# Are Americans kind of forced to support LGBT standpoints? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430 "2018-06-04T20:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/221 "2018-06-09T20:43:46Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > It has always been this way - that is not a new thing. Well, not technically. It used to be a purely religious matter (mostly back in the day when there were national religions) but started to be a state matter in the West when Nations started to decide that they ran their own shows, not the Church. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/222 "2018-06-09T20:56:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And if your job is taking cake commissions, _you take everybody’s commission._ The whole point of taking commissions is that you get to pick and choose which ones you want to do. That freedom of choice is inherent in the wording of “taking commissions.” If you plan to take whatever work is available, regardless of what it is, then you don’t call what you do “taking commissions.” ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/223 "2018-06-09T23:37:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Agreed. > > Agreed. > > Well, this depends a bit. If you wouldn’t beat someone for being gay, but wouldn’t lift a finger to stop someone else from doign so, you are not exactly showing much tolerance yourself. > > Nah. > > Nah. > > Ah, here we are trying to tie into the threads about cakes and weddings. No one in the history of weddings ever has ever thought that the person paid to make the cake was doing so as an endorsement of the wedding until this came up as a way of excusing a desire to discriminate. No one says that the baker has to put out a sign that says, “This cake was made to proudly endorse this same sex marriage.” No one has ever put out a sign like that endorsing hetero marriages. > > It is treating someone differently because of who they are that makes someone a bigot. So, yes, refusing to perform the same service that you would perform for someone else is the definition of discrimination based on an intolerance towards who they are. > > Depends on why you won’t wear the rainbow pin. If it is because you don’t want people to get the wrong impression that you are for equality, then you may just be a bigot. If it is because it clashes with your fabulous outfit, maybe not so much. > > The threshold for people complaining and whining their asses off because they are expected to treat people with dignity and respect is virtually 0% with people who are desperate to find a justification for making sure that those they despise are put in their place. > > You should be aware of the excluded middle fallacy, as you are throwing out the entirety of the reality of human interaction with your binary pronouncement. > (massive snip) You have proven my point. Even in my far-fetched example of “pay for the wedding….” you entertain the possibility of his being a bigot; this is exactly what I wanted to show. No hesitation, nothing, nothing is accepted except for full public, enthusiastic and repeated support. Everything else can make you a bigot. That’s why I pedalled back on these issues. Reading here made reconsider my negative stance on civil unions and later even marriage, but the constant “99% is exactly like 0%” just made the whole stretching-my-beliefs-to-the-limit a useless excercise. I know that if I go 100% then, even then, when they come to my church to tell us we’re bigots because we don’t marry same-sex couples and sue us or disrupt ceremonies even after saying a million times that is was about civil not religious marriage, it won’t matter how many pins, how many marches, how many votes, how many stickers; that day I’m Che Guevara running an Iranian prison ready to throw gays off a building. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/224 "2018-06-09T23:49:12Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > You’re pleading conscience, but it’s you whose point of view is unconscionable. It’s just bigotry, just discrimination - there is no valid religious belief behind what you’re asking for. I’m an atheist, so I don’t know what your on about religion. Being forced to promote any form of ideology that is not a condition of employment is wrong, afaic. I just want to work and being denied that for not promoting something not work related is also wrong and I shouldn’t have to justify why I won’t support it. Because no matter what that justification is I’m branded a bigot. I figure that is the point of the thread, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/225 "2018-06-10T00:26:42Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You have proven my point. Even in my far-fetched example of “pay for the wedding….” you entertain the possibility of his being a bigot; this is exactly what I wanted to show. No hesitation, nothing, nothing is accepted except for full public, enthusiastic and repeated support. Everything else can make you a bigot. > > That’s why I pedalled back on these issues. Reading here made reconsider my negative stance on civil unions and later even marriage, but the constant “99% is exactly like 0%” just made the whole stretching-my-beliefs-to-the-limit a useless excercise. I know that if I go 100% then, even then, when they come to my church to tell us we’re bigots because we don’t marry same-sex couples and sue us or disrupt ceremonies even after saying a million times that is was about civil not religious marriage, it won’t matter how many pins, how many marches, how many votes, how many stickers; that day I’m Che Guevara running an Iranian prison ready to throw gays off a building. Extremism in the other direction will sure show those (mostly fictional) extreme pro-LGBT folks the what for! I’m sure that several former racists went back to being racist and blamed those pesky damn anti-racists… if they weren’t so “extreme” in fighting racism, then they wouldn’t have had to go back to being racists! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/226 "2018-06-10T00:43:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Extremism in the other direction will sure show those (mostly fictional) extreme pro-LGBT folks the what for! I’m sure that several former racists went back to being racist and blamed those pesky damn anti-racists… if they weren’t so “extreme” in fighting racism, then they wouldn’t have had to go back to being racists! In case it wasn’t clear, you have no one to blame for your own views but yourself. If you oppose equal rights for gay people, that’s on you, and not anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/227 "2018-06-10T01:54:06Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Being forced to promote any form of ideology that is not a condition of employment is wrong, afaic. I just want to work and being denied that for not promoting something not work related is also wrong and I shouldn’t have to justify why I won’t support it. Because no matter what that justification is I’m branded a bigot. I figure that is the point of the thread, isn’t it? You’re going on and on and on about how, in effect, important social issues are no business of a corporation or a major sports team. Companies should stick to making widgets and sports teams should stick to sports, right? That’s an incredibly sad and shallow and narrow-minded viewpoint. The reality is that, just like private citizens, major corporations and similar institutions are part of society and have societal responsibilities, and the larger and more influential they are, the greater those responsibilities. And there’s absolutely no doubt which are and which are not valid issues for them to take up, because the valid issues reflect basic matters of human rights that we can all agree on in a civilized society: helping the disadvantaged, the victims of racism, gender discrimination, and other forms of oppression. The causes are so damned obviously clear-cut that anyone who tries to manufacture artificial reasons for not supporting them is, in fact – whether they realize it or not – either being deluded by a very limited understanding of the role of institutions in society or, more often, just biased by bigotry against those causes. You have made this groundless objection again and again. Upthread you said, in response to one of my arguments, “Because I work for that organization. I represent them and they represent me. If they choose to promote some political view that has no relation to what their purpose is, then it causes conflict.” You also said, with regard to the USWNT soccer issue, “I want to play soccer, not talk, worry, support, what have you, about things not related to soccer.” As I said, this bullshit fails to recognize the fundamental roles and responsibilities of major influential organizations in society, and it’s a good thing that you’re not running any such organization. As I pointed out [in post #98](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21003630&postcount=98), major sports teams, especially, because they’re so influential with young people, have important obligations to promulgate values of human rights, equality, and tolerance. And, fortunately, they do. It’s not just the USWNT. As I mentioned in that post, the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and WNBA were all marching as leagues in the NYC Pride March. 24 Major League Baseball teams are to host LGBT Pride nights in 2018. And it’s not just sports teams, and not just about gay rights. Take Amazon, for instance. According to you, a company that sells books and merchandise should stick to that business and shut up about things that don’t concern them. But Amazon supports the Special Olympics, stating that “Amazon is proud to support the inclusive spirit of the Games because diversity and inclusion are an inherent part of our culture.” Anyone bigoted against the disabled who works for Amazon is really out of luck here. Amazon has made $1 million matching donations to the St. Mary’s Center for Women and Children in Boston and to Friendship Place in Washington, DC, in support of ending homelessness. They maintain a pro bono legal team for the community in Seattle called Mary’s Place. They sponsor Farestart, a job training and work experience resource targeted at eliminating homelessness, poverty, and unemployment. They grant funding to literary non-profit organizations through the Amazon Literary Partnership. They support art through a new artist-in-residence program. Any Amazon employee offended by any of this social activism had better quit now! Or take IBM. IBM runs an ongoing program called the Corporate Service Corps providing pro bono consulting to worthy causes, in the past ten years contributing over 3000 IBM participants on over 275 teams in 40 countries around the world. They have an entire division called Corporate Citizenship and Corporate Affairs, whose VP said about this program, “We send out 500 IBMers per year on Corporate Service Corps assignments. What if every company in the Fortune 500 did the same? It would change the view about what corporations can do for society.” That’s not to mention 2,200 Impact Grants to 1,500 organizations in 60 countries since 2010, or the 3,400 hours contributed every day by IBM Volunteers. Any IBM bigot who objects to any of this will be forced to quit, and join Amazon bigots on the unemployment line. Strangely enough, almost no one ever does. Except this particular homophobic bigot who quit the USNWT soccer team. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/228 "2018-06-10T03:42:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You have proven my point. Even in my far-fetched example of “pay for the wedding….” you entertain the possibility of his being a bigot; this is exactly what I wanted to show. No hesitation, nothing, nothing is accepted except for full public, enthusiastic and repeated support. Everything else can make you a bigot. > > That’s why I pedalled back on these issues. Reading here made reconsider my negative stance on civil unions and later even marriage, but the constant “99% is exactly like 0%” just made the whole stretching-my-beliefs-to-the-limit a useless excercise. I know that if I go 100% then, even then, when they come to my church to tell us we’re bigots because we don’t marry same-sex couples and sue us or disrupt ceremonies even after saying a million times that is was about civil not religious marriage, it won’t matter how many pins, how many marches, how many votes, how many stickers; that day I’m Che Guevara running an Iranian prison ready to throw gays off a building. Exactly. Yes. You are. You nailed it. Now fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/229 "2018-06-10T03:45:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You’re going on and on and on about how, in effect, important social issues are no business of a corporation or a major sports team. Not at all. Most of the activities that the organizations you listed participate in ask for volunteers from their employees. You don’t get fired if you don’t participate. Nor are you required to be a walking billboard for those activities if you don’t participate in them. For someone supposedly for human rights you sure don’t have a problem with forcing people to do things they don’t want to do and have nothing to do with their primary job function. Or do your promotion of rights only apply to those in protected groups? The rest of us can suck eggs? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/230 "2018-06-10T05:19:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Extremism in the other direction will sure show those (mostly fictional) extreme pro-LGBT folks the what for! I’m sure that several former racists went back to being racist and blamed those pesky damn anti-racists… if they weren’t so “extreme” in fighting racism, then they wouldn’t have had to go back to being racists! No, but certainly you don’t have to like people of other races or have t-shirts with Mandela on them. If a person treats blacks, whites, and all other colors of the rainbow equally, what do you care if he’s thinking “those damn cracker rednecks are stoopid” all the time? It’s not enough. Living peacefully requires that you respect others’ personal beliefs, or at least, respect what they think and what they are willing to keep to themselves. You never convince racists with hostile arguments, there are others which work much better. However, you alienate those who, for example, because they are in the process of changing, are still not quite confortable with other races and it’s taking it step by step; respectful, but still not quite there. They won’t wear a BLM t-shirt just yet. If you tell them “Sorry, Hitler, when will you stop hating other people?” why will they continue the process? If peaceful coexistence is not what you want, so be it, you won’t get it. Just remember, that the power you give to a government never goes away and when you applaud closing bakeries (really, gays have it great if a cake makes the news. “_Next up, a flag-maker is sued for not using the right pantone in the orange stripe of a rainbow flag_”) don’t complain when that same power bites you in the ass. When Obama said “I have a pen and a phone” many cheered. When Trump said something similar, they booed. Maybe Obama used it right and Trump wring, but accepting it a legal and real made it available for all other presidents. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Exactly. Yes. You are. You nailed it. Now fix it. Why would I fix it (assuming it’s broken, which it isn’t)? What do I get? The possibility of others judging me for how many times I wear a rainbow pin and then deciding that any number lower than whatever they think makes a homophobe? No, thanks. Fuck those people and shoot their very-high, nosebleed-inducing horses. If you support attacking people because, to no harm to you, they think differently, then tolerance and human rights are just a cover for imposition. ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/231 "2018-06-10T05:22:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > He could not deny her the same service that he would give anyone else because of her membership in protected classes, if that is what you are asking. > > If you are asking anything else, it is utterly irrelevant to this thread. Thanks for the feedback, but I was seeking clarification regarding > [@Miller](#): > > Perfectly clear. Allow me the counterpoint: if you are offering a service to the public, you are required to offer it to all members of the public, regardless of their race, religion, gender, or sexuality. If your religious “values” preclude you from treating your customers equally, you need to find a different line of work. > > Is _that_ clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/232 "2018-06-10T05:31:19Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Not at all. Most of the activities that the organizations you listed participate in ask for volunteers from their employees. You don’t get fired if you don’t participate. Nor are you required to be a walking billboard for those activities if you don’t participate in them. For someone supposedly for human rights you sure don’t have a problem with forcing people to do things they don’t want to do and have nothing to do with their primary job function. Or do your promotion of rights only apply to those in protected groups? The rest of us can suck eggs? If you’re not really opposed to LGBT equal rights and are just trying to argue some sort of principle, then your arguments are so misguided that your disconnect from the real world here is nothing short of amazing. To characterize the examples of corporate community activism that I cited as being “volunteer” work is utterly absurd. Most of them don’t involve volunteers, though some do, but ALL of them are driven from top corporate leadership as company policy, paid for by the company, and proudly and prominently associated with the company brand. So to pick up on one of your earlier objections, what if you worked for one of these companies and were publicly asked how you feel about some initiative associated with your company like fighting poverty in ghettos or aiding the homeless? Would you not thereby be “forced” into either a supportive public position or else disagree with the program and therefore be judged a bigot? So according to your logic, ALL the programs I cited are inappropriate; Amazon should just stick to books and IBM to computers, and what a simple and fair world this would be! And what if you were a pro baseball player being asked about MLB team participation in the NYC Gay Pride parade? Heaven forbid, if you were against it you might have to out yourself as a bigot! Or how about a tough burly NHL player being asked why he’s being “forced” to [wear a pink ribbon logo on his helmet](https://www.nhl.com/mapleleafs/news/leafs-face-off-against-breast-cancer/c-460541)? Or – heaven forfend! – how about working for IBM and being asked why your [world-class technology organization is displaying a rainbow logo](http://www.newnownext.com/ibm-rainbow-pride-lgbt/01/2017/)? Or why it even has such a thing as a “chief diversity officer”, or why it was named the most gay-friendly employer in the world? Tough questions for an IBMer to answer without outing himself as a bigot if he opposes this stuff. There seem to be two competing dichotomies here: the way you think the world should work, and the way it actually works. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/233 "2018-06-10T09:05:00Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If you’re not really opposed to LGBT equal rights and are just trying to argue some sort of principle, then your arguments are so misguided that your disconnect from the real world here is nothing short of amazing. I am arguing a principle. It is all about principles. I am against forcing people to do things against their will (obviously there are laws in society that normally dictate people’s actions), you are all for it. How long have you been a facist? > [@](#): > > To characterize the examples of corporate community activism that I cited as being “volunteer” work is utterly absurd. Most of them don’t involve volunteers, though some do, but ALL of them are driven from top corporate leadership as company policy, paid for by the company, and proudly and prominently associated with the company brand. Most corporate support for charities is all volunteer unless that is your job area. I don’t know what companies you work for that force you to participate. Some have policies that allow you to work for charities on company time. They don’t force you to work for their charity. > [@](#): > > And what if you were a pro baseball player being asked about MLB team participation in the NYC Gay Pride parade? Heaven forbid, if you were against it you might have to out yourself as a bigot! I’m against it because it has nothing to do with baseball. Apparently that would make me a bigot in the minds of many. > [@](#): > > Or – heaven forfend! – how about working for IBM and being asked why your [world-class technology organization is displaying a rainbow logo](http://www.newnownext.com/ibm-rainbow-pride-lgbt/01/2017/)? Or why it even has such a thing as a “chief diversity officer”, or why it was named the most gay-friendly employer in the world? Tough questions for an IBMer to answer without outing himself as a bigot if he opposes this stuff. Ah, now I get it. Anyone who doesn’t tow and actively support the line should lose their job and die of starvation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/234 "2018-06-10T11:16:04Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > No, but certainly you don’t have to like people of other races or have t-shirts with Mandela on them. If a person treats blacks, whites, and all other colors of the rainbow equally, what do you care if he’s thinking “those damn cracker rednecks are stoopid” all the time? It’s not enough. > Living peacefully requires that you respect others’ personal beliefs, or at least, respect what they think and what they are willing to keep to themselves. > You never convince racists with hostile arguments, there are others which work much better. > However, you alienate those who, for example, because they are in the process of changing, are still not quite confortable with other races and it’s taking it step by step; respectful, but still not quite there. They won’t wear a BLM t-shirt just yet. If you tell them “Sorry, Hitler, when will you stop hating other people?” why will they continue the process? > > If peaceful coexistence is not what you want, so be it, you won’t get it. Just remember, that the power you give to a government never goes away and when you applaud closing bakeries (really, gays have it great if a cake makes the news. “_Next up, a flag-maker is sued for not using the right pantone in the orange stripe of a rainbow flag_”) don’t complain when that same power bites you in the ass. > When Obama said “I have a pen and a phone” many cheered. When Trump said something similar, they booed. Maybe Obama used it right and Trump wring, but accepting it a legal and real made it available for all other presidents. There will always be some jerks at the edges being obnoxious and unwelcoming. Anyone can always use those jerks as an excuse to maintain bigotry or prejudice. But it’s no more than an excuse – not an actual reason. Most people who support LGBT rights aren’t interested in harming Christians or Christianity or anything like that, we just honestly want equal rights. Your beliefs can’t be blamed on anyone but yourself. That some people are jerks doesn’t make it okay to have bigoted or prejudiced beliefs, if you do indeed have some. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/235 "2018-06-10T12:02:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Extremism in the other direction will sure show those (mostly fictional) extreme pro-LGBT folks the what for! I’m sure that several former racists went back to being racist and blamed those pesky damn anti-racists… if they weren’t so “extreme” in fighting racism, then they wouldn’t have had to go back to being racists! Wow, you mean people are inherently irrational machines and sometimes shaming and attacking people will lead to them reacting in bad, irrational ways? Say it ain’t so. Seriously, We both know it’s a lousy excuse, but if you’re not super dedicated to equality and people who are dedicated to it treat you like shit, the immediate response is generally not, “Hmm, I should get closer to those people who treated me like shit”. Instead it’s radicalization, turning _away_ from the groups that treat you like shit, and into the open arms of the racists, anti-feminists, anti-LGBT, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/236 "2018-06-10T15:07:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There will always be some jerks at the edges being obnoxious and unwelcoming. Anyone can always use those jerks as an excuse to maintain bigotry or prejudice. But it’s no more than an excuse – not an actual reason. Most people who support LGBT rights aren’t interested in harming Christians or Christianity or anything like that, we just honestly want equal rights. > > Your beliefs can’t be blamed on anyone but yourself. That some people are jerks doesn’t make it okay to have bigoted or prejudiced beliefs, if you do indeed have some. It is absolutely true that “_Most people who support LGBT rights aren’t interested in harming Christians or Christianity or anything like that, we just honestly want equal rights._,” no question about it. I always think of a guy a follow on YouTube, Dave Rubin. Married gay and he WOULD stand in front of the church defending my right to believe how I want and religiously marry (with no legal consequence) if the way we want. However, it is also true that when that vocal minority goes to disrupt Christian ceremonies or sue them for not marrying gays, the majority won’t stand to defend the Christians, because they’d be bigots. Yup, the married gays would be bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/237 "2018-06-10T15:15:08Z")
Does the excuse that he can refuse to take any commission that he wants to remain valid if the only group he refuses to take commissions for is a protected class? Is there any evidence at all that he has refused commissions from others? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/238 "2018-06-10T15:21:43Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You have proven my point. Even in my far-fetched example of “pay for the wedding….” you entertain the possibility of his being a bigot; this is exactly what I wanted to show. No hesitation, nothing, nothing is accepted except for full public, enthusiastic and repeated support. Everything else can make you a bigot. You set up hypotheticals, and I answered them. If your hypotheticals were flawed, or were not actually made as a part of a good faith effort to understand the issue, then that is on the one who made up the hypotheticals, not the one who answered them. Any point that was proven was proven in your own mind at the time that you made them. The specific answer I gave was “If it is because you don’t want people to get the wrong impression that you are for equality, then you may just be a bigot.” The only thing that that proves is that those who are against equality may be bigots. Anything else that it proves to you is only because it aligns with conformational biases that you prefer to nurture than expel. > [@](#): > > That’s why I pedalled back on these issues. Reading here made reconsider my negative stance on civil unions and later even marriage, but the constant “99% is exactly like 0%” just made the whole stretching-my-beliefs-to-the-limit a useless excercise. I know that if I go 100% then, even then, when they come to my church to tell us we’re bigots because we don’t marry same-sex couples and sue us or disrupt ceremonies even after saying a million times that is was about civil not religious marriage, it won’t matter how many pins, how many marches, how many votes, how many stickers; that day I’m Che Guevara running an Iranian prison ready to throw gays off a building. If you are saying that there must be complete control over everyone, and that you will only stop being a bigot if we can guarantee that everyone in the world will respect their perception of your efforts, then you are specifically saying that you will not stop being a bigot. You know that there are lots and lots of people out there, and that some of them will say and do stupid things. And some of those stupid things may be things that make you a bit uncomfortable. Sorry that human nature is that way. But if you are holding out for human nature to change in such a way that no single person will ever call out what they perceive as discriminatory actions by yourself or the community you choose to join before you can accept other human beings as equals, then you are never going to get there. And I think that you know that, and prefer to use the excuse that you will not be celebrated and thanked for your grudging acceptance of other people as fellow human beings as a reason to continue to treat others with contempt. > [@MemoryLeak](#): > > Thanks for the feedback, but I was seeking clarification regarding But, what you actually asked was > [@](#): > > So should the government compel Marc Jacobs to dress Melania Trump should she request that service? Not sure how making that sort of strawman statement has anything to do with seeking clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/239 "2018-06-10T17:59:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You set up hypotheticals, and I answered them. If your hypotheticals were flawed, or were not actually made as a part of a good faith effort to understand the issue, then that is on the one who made up the hypotheticals, not the one who answered them. Any point that was proven was proven in your own mind at the time that you made them… Not that I care, but you call me a bigot so many times it stops making sense. When the bar for bigotry is so low that even asking for respect in a private setting is hatred, then, whatev dude. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/240 "2018-06-10T17:59:56Z")
So many people think they have the authority to tell others what is art and what religious beliefs are legitimate. Voltaire would be vilified today. “I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it,” is no longer and admirable attitude, but a mortal sin if someone defends a person’s right to hold a politically incorrect opinion. Identity politics isn’t about protected classes; it’s about favored classes and enemies of the state–there is no middle ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=13)