# Are Americans kind of forced to support LGBT standpoints? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430 "2018-06-04T20:36:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/361 "2018-06-15T23:15:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This will probably come as a great shock to the voters of Canada, Scandinavia, and much of western Europe. Those nations don’t have pure Socialism yet. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/362 "2018-06-15T23:15:36Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > There are prohibitions on participating in pagan religious activities in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Many Christians extrapolate that to modern life, and see a homosexual wedding as going against God’s word, so the prohibition applies. > And people can type it until eternity, but they can’t convince me that decorating a cake isn’t creating an artwork. Do you have kids? Does Santa come? Do they go trick or treating? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/363 "2018-06-15T23:19:02Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Those nations don’t have pure Socialism yet. But, according to you, America _does_. Because it’s doing things! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/364 "2018-06-15T23:21:00Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Those nations don’t have pure Socialism yet. LOL. So you’re moving the goalposts? They’ve voted for socialists and socialism many, many times. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/365 "2018-06-15T23:22:30Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > I would never use that kind of language in a public forum. I’m not hearing any objection to the sentiment, I notice. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Christians have the Holy Spirit, Scriptures, and other Christians to help them discern what is right and what is not. Society is not part of that list, even though they think they should be. > Christians who behave in violation of Scripture (the Holy Spirit will never tell us to do so) will have the Holy Spirit acting as a conscience, and if that person is in a good church, the church will also call them to account. > Someone will probably tell me that having a conscience is inadequate, but they don’t understand the relationship of a true believer to the Holy Spirit. That’s exactly what somebody who was being influenced by the devil to defy the biblical command to love thy neighbor would say. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/366 "2018-06-15T23:26:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Marxists? Forget it, he’s rolling. . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/367 "2018-06-15T23:27:31Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > So Republicans invented it, but Marxists picked up the torch and ran with it, wanting to create a new society based on identity politics instead of ending it. I’m going to go ahead and just assume you don’t have a clue what “Marxist” means. But, again, the point is that American society has always been about identity politics, and it has always been the right that has pushed it. Yes, even today. Jim Crow was about identity politics. The Chinese Exclusion laws were about identity politics. The SSM bans that were passed in state after state were about identity politics. Identity politics exist because people like you keep identifying groups in American society that you can demonize, forcing the groups you are victimizing to draw together to protect themselves. It’s not Democratic identity politics that keep the overwhelming number of black people for voting for the party of Lincoln. It’s the endless tide of Republican policies that disparately impact black communities, the absolute hostility by the Republican leadership to doing anything at all to help black communities, and the constant fear-mongering of Republican politicians about black people that make them vote Democratic. > [@](#): > > White men were unfairly privileged and Asians are too successful in school, so let’s build a world in which they are given disadvantages while others get pushed up. Let’s create a society in which only the most vocal groups get to decide what beliefs are acceptable and anyone who doesn’t heartily approve must be driven out of society. Nobody is arguing for a world that disadvantages white men. This is a fantasy you have invented, which appears to be a skill at which you are well-practiced. What you’re witnessing is an attempt to create a society that’s actually equal for everyone involved. This, naturally, outrages you, because it is precisely the opposite of the outcome you want. > [@](#): > > As far as your perception of how ALL Christians treated all homosexuals. I can only pray that you will actually meet some real Christians. I have been very careful not to say “all” Christians. I have specified that I am talking about right-wing Christians, and that I am talking about Christians like yourself. I’m fortunate to be acquainted with quite a few real Christians. I know what they’re like, and they are not like you. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/368 "2018-06-16T05:10:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Forget it, he’s rolling. > . No. Just no. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/369 "2018-06-16T05:47:10Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Fine. But we have been commanded to make disciples of all nations, and that means telling people the Gospel, even if others call it hate and try to stop us with lawsuits and legislation. And we have to live as the Holy Spirit leads us, even if that means we won’t participate in what the world calls good. Refusing to participate in someone else’s act of faith is not discrimination based on hatred. So, you’re absolutely certain that the baker would be forced to attend a non-Christian religious ceremony if he made the cake? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/370 "2018-06-16T07:07:52Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Fine. But we have been commanded to make disciples of all nations, and that means telling people the Gospel, even if others call it hate and try to stop us with lawsuits and legislation. Translation: [https://pics.me.me/help-were-being-oppressed-christian-nothing-in-particular-agnostic-atheist-14845498.png](https://pics.me.me/help-were-being-oppressed-christian-nothing-in-particular-agnostic-atheist-14845498.png) To be honest, I’m really sorry about all the ways you’re oppressed. It must suck to not be able to celebrate your holidays however you want (or indeed to have people _not_ get outraged when they acknowledge that there are things other than your most important holiday in the month of December). It must suck to never see your religious beliefs represented by your elected leaders - it’s not like 100% of congress and 100% of elected presidents share your religious beliefs. I could keep going but this is boring and stupid, just like the idea that Christians are oppressed in _any_ way in the USA. I’d say “stop playing the martyr” but that’s kind of a core part of your religious beliefs, so instead I’ll just ask that you maybe not call the kettle black by talking about “snowflakes” complaining about “microaggressions”. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And we have to live as the Holy Spirit leads us, even if that means we won’t participate in what the world calls good. So if god/the holy spirit tells you to kill your children, would you do it? > [@CelticKnot](#): > > No, I believe that when Socialists realized that class warfare wasn’t going to work to get them followers, they had to find another way to get a majority of people to side with them. They have two tactics now: Identity politics and environmentalism. This is just straight-up nonsense. At the time that identity politics and environmentalism were finding their start, most european countries still had massive socialist protests, socialist political parties, and widely read socialist philosophers. Did you get this from Jordan Peterson or something? The reality is that identity politics and environmentalism have fuck-all to do with the goals of socialism or marxism. These claims are nonsense and you need to either back them up or walk them right the fuck back. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/371 "2018-06-16T15:56:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Except that people that use leviticus to justify their discrimination against homosexuals. So, which is it? Does it do away with the laws against homoseuxality, or does it not? You want to have it both ways. Ask them, not me. If Levithicus is their reason, perfect. If “Das Kapital” is their reason, perfect. If a video on “Reason TV” is their reason, perfect. If the SDMB is their reason, perfect. Just be open about it and accept the social consequences. I will, however, repeat that if wedding cakes are even remotely an big issue for US gays, they have it made. I consider homosexual sex a sin but we should be very careful in making a laws simply because it’s a religious belief that an action is wrong. I fully support any person who doesn’t want to be involved in an action they consider wrong if such participation may be construed as support. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > So, you’re saying it’s very simple for Catholics, you just make up whatever you want and then say God told it to you? That the actual reason you’re against gay marriage is you personally don’t like it? No, I’m not and no, we don’t. If you want to learn about the relation between Scripture and Tradition, you can follow [this link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm). As a Catholic, I’m unwaveringly against Catholic religious same-sex marriage and will literally fight to prevent any law that would force us to do so. In the civil life, however, my religious arguments should not be the basis of what makes right or wrong for anyone but me. If my religious arguments don’t convince you, then I need others. The non-religious arguments for me are (and I won’t continue much further into this, on this thread) 1. Once we open that option, all other options become valid, like three or four-way marriages. I think it’s a net negative. 2. Once they are valid, the attacks on religious institutions, such as the Catholic church, both on the legal side and the harassment area will be worse, and almost none of those who claim openness and tolerance will stand defending my right to belief in my personal, private life the way I want. I won’t support people so that, as a consequence, they will hurt me. Finally, I don’t care if my arguments convince you or not. They are good for me. > [@jayjay](#): > > Maybe we don’t WANT to inherit your imaginary kingdom. Perfect, but don’t complain if you don’t get there. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/372 "2018-06-16T16:13:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > As a Catholic, I’m unwaveringly against Catholic religious same-sex marriage and will literally fight to prevent any law that would force us to do so. You do realize there are a few actual Catholic bishops that disagree with you, as does the majority of the Catholic laity in the United States( as of 2013 ). Would you _literally_ fight them? They are your spiritual brethren, after all. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/373 "2018-06-16T16:23:18Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Perfect, but don’t complain if you don’t get there. Great! Keep your religion crap off of me while I’m alive, then. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/374 "2018-06-16T17:07:27Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You do realize there are a few actual Catholic bishops that disagree with you, as does the majority of the Catholic laity in the United States( as of 2013 ). Would you _literally_ fight them? They are your spiritual brethren, after all. Hold up there… those Bishops do not agree that there should be a law requiring them to perform same-sex marriages. Which was what you quoted **Ají de Gallina** saying he would fight against. Broadly speaking, liberal Catholic clergy who are willing to perform those ceremonies, and even Advocate within the church for church approval of those ceremonies, are still not suggesting that the _state_ should require them to do so, are they? . ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/375 "2018-06-16T17:07:35Z")
> [@CelticKnot](#): > > Actually, 1 Corinthians tells us that homosexuals are will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so we know they need to repent. I always thought is was appropriate that it is 1 corinthians 6:9 that deals with this. But, I ask you, is it only homosexuals that are mentioned there? Fornication is forbidden there too, so you need to check that they are virgins, and of course adulterers aren’t going either, so you can’t make a cake for a divorcee. And then the cake maker, who makes works of art that he puts on such a high pedestal that he cannot stand to see them sullied by being used in a manner not of his choosing, is idolizing his skills and product, so he’s going to be hanging out with the sinners in the after life as well. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Let’s create a society in which only the most vocal groups get to decide what beliefs are acceptable and anyone who doesn’t heartily approve must be driven out of society. That’s the society we have, and it is dominated by straight white christian men. They get upset anytime anyone else tries to get a word in edgewise. > [@](#): > > Let’s trade the idea of equality of opportunity for the ideal of equity with the fantasy that if there is equality of outcome for everyone, everyone will be equally happy. We are so far from equality of opportunity that there is no trading. We just don’t have it. Equality of outcome is something that only exists in strawmen arguments. > [@](#): > > As far as your perception of how ALL Christians treated all homosexuals. I can only pray that you will actually meet some real Christians. I’ve met many, many christians who are welcome and accepting of all people. Jesus did tell them to love their neighbor as themselves, and not to judge, and to worry about the beam in your own eye before the mote in your brother’s. While I may not share with them the belief in the divinity of Jesus, I can share with them values. From my experience, most christians are of this sort. However, you are not talking about or representing Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus. You are defending people who use the bible to justify their desire to treat other people poorly. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > There are prohibitions on participating in pagan religious activities in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Many Christians extrapolate that to modern life, and see a homosexual wedding as going against God’s word, so the prohibition applies. Once again, do they just take that one word out of 1 Corinthians 6:9, or do they also refuse to “participate” in other pagan rituals like the marriage of divorced adults, non-virgins, or idolaters? Do they refuse to participate in Halloween? Do they refuse to follow any of the “traditions” around Easter and Christmas that are based on pagan rituals? > [@](#): > > And people can type it until eternity, but they can’t convince me that decorating a cake isn’t creating an artwork. Staking a point on stubbornness here? > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Fine. But we have been commanded to make disciples of all nations, and that means telling people the Gospel, even if others call it hate and try to stop us with lawsuits and legislation. And we have to live as the Holy Spirit leads us, even if that means we won’t participate in what the world calls good. Refusing to participate in someone else’s act of faith is not discrimination based on hatred. I suppose you could make the same argument that an Islamic terrorist murdering hundreds of people is an act of faith, not of hatred. > [@CelticKnot](#): > > Christians have the Holy Spirit, Scriptures, and other Christians to help them discern what is right and what is not. Society is not part of that list, even though they think they should be. > Christians who behave in violation of Scripture (the Holy Spirit will never tell us to do so) will have the Holy Spirit acting as a conscience, and if that person is in a good church, the church will also call them to account. > Someone will probably tell me that having a conscience is inadequate, but they don’t understand the relationship of a true believer to the Holy Spirit. They also have Jesus himself, telling you that love is the highest law. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/376 "2018-06-16T17:13:21Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Ask them, not me. If Levithicus is their reason, perfect. If “Das Kapital” is their reason, perfect. If a video on “Reason TV” is their reason, perfect. If the SDMB is their reason, perfect. Just be open about it and accept the social consequences. Why would I ask them, when you are the one that is making the claim? Where do you base your claim and belief that homosexuality is a sin? > [@](#): > > I will, however, repeat that if wedding cakes are even remotely an big issue for US gays, they have it made. What does that even mean? > [@](#): > > I consider homosexual sex a sin but we should be very careful in making a laws simply because it’s a religious belief that an action is wrong. I fully support any person who doesn’t want to be involved in an action they consider wrong if such participation may be construed as support. I consider discrimination against others to be a sin. The difference is, is that I will only advocate for laws that prevent people from causing others harm, rather than laws that reward people for doing harm. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/377 "2018-06-16T17:15:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The non-religious arguments for me are (and I won’t continue much further into this, on this thread) > > 1. Once we open that option, all other options become valid, like three or four-way marriages. I think it’s a net negative. This was used as an argument against legalizing interracial marriage. Why was it invalid then, but valid now? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/378 "2018-06-16T17:15:56Z")
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**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/379 "2018-06-16T17:35:34Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I will, however, repeat that if wedding cakes are even remotely an big issue for US gays, they have it made. So you don’t think it was a big deal when black travelers needed [The Negro Motorist Green Book - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book) ? The fact that this particular incident was about cakes doesn’t mean that it is literally only about wedding cakes. > [@](#): > > As a Catholic, I’m unwaveringly against Catholic religious same-sex marriage and will literally fight to prevent any law that would force us to do so. No one has tried to pass a law that would force you to do so. Why are you writing about this like it’s a realistic fear when no one has tried to do so and such a law would be struck down quickly? > [@](#): > > 1. Once they are valid, the attacks on religious institutions, such as the Catholic church, both on the legal side and the harassment area will be worse, and almost none of those who claim openness and tolerance will stand defending my right to belief in my personal, private life the way I want. I won’t support people so that, as a consequence, they will hurt me. What is your evidence for this? Where in the US is there some pressure to enact laws that restrict anyone from practicing Christianity in their personal, private life? Specifically which laws and what practices are there that you fear? The idea that any flavor of Christianity is under attack in the US is ludicrous and simply has no basis in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430/380 "2018-06-16T17:55:53Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Hold up there… those Bishops do not agree that there should be a law requiring them to perform same-sex marriages. Ah, good point. Bit of a misread there on my part. Question retracted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-kind-of-forced-to-support-lgbt-standpoints/815430.md?page=20)