Fretful, in my observation and experience, I don’t think the US educational system has much to explain the disparity. For the large part, I think it’s very comprehensive - much broader (though perhaps less deep) than the UK system in which I was educated.
One of the differences that I’ve seen between my UK education and the one my US friends followed is that we choose a more limited number of subjects at an early age - like, 14 - and then we have to follow them in great depth for several years. Thus, I chose “History” and that was me for 4 years (for about three hours a week), during which we studied early English history for about a year, then a year of general “world history”, which spanned loads and loads of stuff including Elizabethan colonialism, rise of European imperialism, US independence, Japanese Meijiism, the French revolution, etc., and finally we studied “modern world history” for 2 years, which covered the end of WWI, Russian revolution, the rise of Hitler, WWII, Chinese communist revolution and cultural revolution, and stuff like different democratic models (proportional representation vs. other methods), the roots of the League of Nations, the UN, some shit I’ve no doublt forgotten, etc. My recollection of Geography classes is limited to rainfall in Ghana. I can’t actually recall having studied anything else in Geography.
However, I still maintain that most people’s post-school comprehension of the outside world and its history (apart from those who actually studied/majored in history) is media-derived - once you’ve left school, unless you’re particularly interested in other histories and cultures, you tend just to lap up the things that come out of what particular channel the goggle-box is tuned to that evening,
No, I disagree here. How many years of geography did you receive in the UK education system? In the US system, we tend to get a half a year. At the most. At least from the people I’ve talked to. I only had a quarter year.
Europeans tend to spend more time on geography in school.
At this point I’m obliged to be thankful that I attended the Berkeley unified school district in California. We had geography class in all grades 7-12. Peggy Ploss had us read Thucidides’ chronicle of the Pelopenesian wars and brought Eric Hoffer into our 7[sup]th[/sup] grade class for a lecture. Mr. Dhillon spent an entire 9[sup]th[/sup] grade semester making us aware of Mohandas Gandhi and his struggle for India’s independence in addition to exposing us to Sihk religion. Julius Sustarik illuminated the Balkan peninsula and its troubled history for our 10[sup]th[/sup] grade history class (besides teaching comparative religion). Bob Fielder walked us through American history in 11[sup]th[/sup] grade.
I will now express my eternal gratitude to these dedicated and patient individuals who held learning in such high esteem. When I see the gargantuan levels of ignorance that abound in this world today, I can only be thankful for the quality of education I received. I’ll freely admit to having devoured thousands of books since then. Yet, I remain astounded at the lack of curiosity that so many people have. Such a woeful absence of enthusiasm for learning has permeated our society all the way to its highest office.
I’ll stop ranting now and hope others will see that not all Americans are bereft of geographic knowledge. I find it supremely ironic that the Irish are beset with bigotry as others come to their land seeking economic betterment. In early American history, the Irish fared little better than Africans in terms of discrimination. More recently, British anti-Irish sentiment has provided sterling examples of this same racism. One would think some of this perspective might have leaked back into the emerald isle by now.
Why is everyone so surprised about not knowing country codes? If you’ve never had a reason to call another country, then why would you learn them? I don’t know the country code for Germany, but I don’t know the area codes for Kentucky either.
I agree we could do a lot better with history, though. I recall the passage from the novel Speak where the protagonist (a 9th grader) notes that every year they did American history, and every year they got bogged down in the Industrial Revolution and never went any further. And really, that’s not too far from the truth in most places. American history for most of elementary and middle school (with some basic world geography thrown in – find countries on the map, learn their capitals), then in 9th grade half a year of geography, then in 10th grade Western Civilization, a lot of random European history, then in 11th grade American History again (and you’ll get up to WWI if you’re lucky). I was fortunate enough to have a very good 12th grade teacher; that class studied non-Western cultures and IMHO did a pretty good job of it. But that was arguably a college-level class. The good things I got from history classes, I got from brilliant teachers; with even an average teacher I didn’t learn very much.
I must be something of an anomaly. My American history and literature are terrible. I know quite a bit more about UK and Scandinavian countries’ history and literature, and good bits of other European, Russian, and Japanese stuff.
I mean, I’m a reasonably educated person, I know when the Civil War was and so on, but I just didn’t learn a lot in school about American history or anything. I learned about Vietnam from old Doonesbury comics. I’ve read The great Gatsby, but that’s about it. Sad, really.
I don’t know how to dial Canada because I’ve never called anyone in Canada; I always wrote cards to my great-aunt in Toronto.
Anyway, what was the question? Oh yes, why we aren’t globally aware. Yeah, I’ll blame the Laci-obsessed media, and our general self-centeredness which is at least partly because we’re so dang big, and the fact that an awful lot of Americans don’t read at all, much less read actual news. I don’t know that young Europeans read a whole lot more than young Americans, though. [anecdote]Certainly most of the ones I knew didn’t seem to be any more interested in world events than Americans.[/anecdote]
Not to deny the original premise, which is doubtless true, but a lot of this is comparing apples and oranges. Saying that the average American Joe Six Pack isn’t up on the world affairs discussed in the London Times is pretty moot. The British Joe Six Pint doesn’t read the London Times either; he reads the Sun or the Mirror. Likewise, a Brit traveling in the US on business is naturally likely to be more aware of world affairs than one of his fellow countryman whose experience with world affairs consists of boozing it up on Ibiza one week a year.
As for not knowing international calling codes, there’s no shame in that. There is, however, some shame in not knowing how to use a phone book.
What definition are you using for cultural diversity?
I can’t claim to be typical in this respect, but whenever I play that particular parlour game I usually manage to name about 47-49 states, although it takes me a while. I could pick out most of those easily enough on an unlabelled map. Come to think of it I’m certain most British people couldn’t find more than half a dozen with confidence and would get mixed up between cities and states.
State capitals are harder (although I do know the difference between a state capital and a state capitol ;)); Sacramento, Albany, Austin, Springfield, Boston, Atlanta, Nashville, Little Rock, Juneau and Honolulu are a few off the top of my head. I’m sure I could think of a few more in time – it’s easier to start with a list of states because we often hear the city name linked to the state name.
Governors are harder still, because generally there’s little reason for us to know the name of a governor unless he is commenting on an international matter, but Jeb Bush made the news during the last presidential election of course, and I could name a few past mayors of New York easily enough – Bloomberg, Giuliani and Koch are/were celebrities in their own right, La Guardia has an airport named after him etc. etc. A significant difference between Governors of US States and Heads of Governments of other countries is that the latter are likely to make official state visits to the USA from time to time.
Nicknames? Well, there are a few obvious ones – the Empire State, the Golden State, the Sunshine State, the Bluegrass State, the Lone Star State. But I don’t see how knowing those makes me knowledgable about the USA in any significant way any more than Americans not knowing, say, the national flowers of Switzerland or Sweden make you ignorant of my continent.
Ellis Island is in New York of course, but I suspect many people over here might make the mistake of assuming the Statue of Liberty is on it.
Americans are, in general, provincial to a degree not common elsewhere, for the size reason given above. There is a great deal of the U.S. where you can drive 1,000 miles in any direction and not leave the U.S., and a significantly larger area that that is true in two or three directions and only hitting the coast prevents its being true in the fourth. Only in Canada, Russia, and China, IIRC, are there similar areas, and in the first two of these the areas it would be true for are generally sparsely populated.
The image of what constitutes Mexico is largely derived from Western movies and the immigrant population, which is largely from the Mexican underclass looking for a new life in the Land of Opportunity. (I won’t speak for Canada; growing up on the border with over half my cultural impact coming from the CBC, CKWS and CKLC, and the Toronto Star, my impressions will of course not represent the American norm.)
Europe, of course, should be grateful for what we did in 1917-18 and 1944-45, and therefore no European nation should ever disagree with us on anything. And of course, with few active Christians in Europe (so it’s seriously reported in a lot of evangelical publications) and all them heathen Ay-rabs in the Middle East, nobody is quite as moral as the good ol’ U.S.A.
The sort of attitude reported in the last paragraph is sincerely held by decent Americans who don’t think that they’re ignorant about other countries.
None at the moment, since I’m not asserting that one is more ‘culturally diverse’ than the other. I’m just preparing for the inevitable assertion that travelling only to different parts of Europe (or worse, Western Europe) is not as parochial as travelling only to different parts of America because Europe is allegedly more culturally diverse than America. Yet whenever someone says this, they can’t really offer anything substantial - it’s just a (often strongly-held) belief, and there’s no real meaning to the phrase ‘cultural diversity’.
It’s really annoying to me because the basic question is quite interesting, but these discussion often fill with people simply asserting a religious belief that Americans are Parochial, Europeans are Globally Aware without offering any convincing reason for why they’ve reached that position.
I haven’t seen much argument for European gloabl awareness; I’ve seen someone assert (effectively) that since the region of Europe has a lot of countries, regional awareness qualifies as global awareness. That, more than anything, indicates that Europeans are not actually as ‘globally aware’ as they would like to be.
What do you think these conversations mean? If I were to go to the UK and hang around a pub, do you think I would not be able to find such absurdities from some Brit? I know we had an English family living behind us when I was growing up, and one day they had a three day weekend and mentioned their plans to go visit the Redwoods. Since we happened to be in North Carolina at the time, either they had alien technology to power their car or they were grossly unaware of the size of the US. I don’t think it really proves much, but you’re the one who’s asserting that that sort of event is highly significant.
This seems to be a common argument:
Step 1: Oh look, I found some dumb and/or ignorant Americans.
Step 2: ----
Step 3: So you see, this shows that Americans are far more ignorant of the world than their European counterparts.
Much like the Underpants Gnomes’ plan for profit, step 2 could use a little elaboration.
Which is my point. You’re not typical. Neither am I. However, I think that challenge is more equivalent than both sides of the pond trying to find european countries.
Liberty Island and Ellis Island darn near touch. They’re both part of the same National Park. However, Ellis Island is in New Jersey. In fact, from survey lines, NJ has a claim to the Statue of Liberty, but if they tried to do it, it might just be war. Not a joke.
Title IX, by the way, has to do with equal access for women’s sports… and yes, that is a big deal, as funding has to be equal as well. It constantly causes a furor, now and again, since the 70s.
Prop 251 is in California, it’s the Medical Marijuana bit, which directly contradicts the Federal Government.
The thing is, you wander in and find someone working in a fish and chips joint, at the fryer, and you try any of the tests on them, they’ll, odds are, have similar results to one of our idiots.
(Yeah, I know, more likely to be a kebob stand these days. But I like batter fried fish.)
Actually, honestly, I know a lot of smart people who work at fast food… where I find willful ignorance is in office drone jobs, more often than not. But that’s not important.
The question, when you get down to it is not about finding places on a map. It’s about the quality of the educational system. Up until high school, for the most part, our students tend to have a relentlessly equalitarian education. Even the ‘gifted’ classes don’t tend to cover anything different that a normal student who applied himself couldn’t pick up.
I understand that tracking to vo-tech starts earlier in Europe. Whatever A and O levels are.
So our education tends to be brought down to the lowest common denominator. This is not good. Speaking as a former teacher, I’m really quite worried about the future of the educational system.
Contrawise, anyone with the motivation to learn will learn and shine. Provided social pressure isn’t too horrid.
Admittedly, world history tends to focus on the history of our country. On the other hand, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t the same for Europe… just longer history.
I don’t know. What have we established?
TV News sucks. BBC news sucks as much as CBS, because they let you think you understand the issues, when it’s still reduced to a sound bite. It is more diverse.
Newspapers. I’ve got to say that american newspapers are better than the english ones I’ve seen most often. Still parochial, but I don’t remember the Suns I’ve read to have anything all that much out of a five hundred mile radius, unless it was American culture.
Herald-Tribune is a great paper, if I’m remembering the title correctly, but I’ll match the Wall Street Journal, the NY Times, and the Washington Post against any foreign paper for depth of understanding and quality of reportage over location.
The net, now…
Well, hell, Google News isn’t half bad, is it?
CNN always has international section on the front…
Radio news is only slightly better than TV news, because there are fewer flashy things.
(I don’t think this point has been touched upon yet, but I only managed to skim the thread so far; apologies in advance if this is just repeating Someone Else’s Message)
Are Americans less globally aware? Hell yeah; just look at all the ignorant stereotyping from the U.S. about Muslems, France, and the Middle East in the last few months for a glaring example of how deep our ignorance can get.
But as bad as this is, IMO it pales next to how ignorant most Americans are about our own history. How many Americans know that their own government sponsored the overthrow of democratically-elected governments, gave training in terrorism and torture to military dictatorships, or sold weapons to both sides of a war to weaken the parties involved? (I’m referring to Chile and Iran; Guatemala; and the Iran/Iraq war, for those who were curious)
None of this stuff is classified news or tin-foil conspiracy theories – this is all public knowledge, relatively current, complete with Congressional investigations and declassified documents and [ublic confessions and whatnot. And yet, I’m sure that if you were to do a survey of the American populace, a humongous majority of them would be completely ignorant of these events, probably to the point where they didn’t even know the events existed. These are the same folks who can say “the US would never invade Iraq just to exploit their oil” without any idea of historical precedent or a trace of irony.
And as the old saw goes, “those who fail to learn from history…”
I am curious, what ‘ignorant stereotyping’ are you referring to? Other than the blatant stereotyping of Americans going on in this thread, I mean. What muslim stereotype is prevelant in America? What stereotype of the ME is rasing your hackles? And cites?
I think Australians are more globally aware than Americans because over here (in Australia) if some other country changes it’s diplomatic ties to us it can have a huge effect on whatever industries commonly import and export to those countries, where as the US citizens can ignore the goings on in other countries becaues the US is far more self-reliant, mostly due to it’s size and industrial power.
Also, Australia has close links not only to the US (due to recent foreign policy decisions), but also Europe, where a lot of our culture came from, and Asia, the source of a lot of trade and immigrants. In other words, a large portion of the world has a huge effect on Australia, both financially and culturally.
The sad thing is the lack of curiousity among Americans (IMO). There are differences in education here (USA) and abroad and this is significant–basically, university in the US is about like high school in Europe–but that’s another topic, really, because anyone curious enough can discover many things about the world just by going to a library or using the internet.
Most Americans, I fear, are far more interested in buying a bigger, newer car than they are in learning about international people and politics.
Someone mentioned earlier they thought the average European teenager would be about as ignorant of foreign affairs as their American counterpart. I agree that when folks are 13 or 14 they haven’t yet learned a lot about the world. But I have noticed that teenagers in Europe seem to be more curious (than Ameircans) about foreign affairs and people. Why is this?
The amount of time spent on vacation is interesting too. Americans, on only 2 weeks holiday a year (compared to 6 weeks in most of Europe), not only are less able to visit diverse places they are also not able to spend as much time visiting friends and family as Europeans are.
We talk a lot about “family values” here but when it comes time to decide between spending more time with family or making more dollars, guess what Americans choose?
And BTW— The BBC is nothing like CBS or CNN or any US news outlet other than perhaps PBS or NPR. If you can get BBC on your dish, I suggest you watch it. You’ll learn a lot more about the USA than you would watching Fox or CNN.
As to the original question, most definitely and resoundingly, YES!
If we had to reason why, that’s speculation and idle speculation at that. Suffice to say that we who experience Yank insularity abroad, it is often taken for arrogance, and maybe that’s true. The ‘Ugly American’ is still perceived that way, four decades after the publication of the original text.
I’m off on a tangent here, but jjimm’s post reminded me of a few things. I was killing some time and chatting to a middle aged American couple and after telling them I came from Australia, they asked about our famous choir. After racking my brain I realised they thought I came from Austria, the home of the Vienna Boy’s Choir. When I tried to explain where Australia was, ie; a huge island in the southern hemisphere etc., they still had no idea the continent existed. I finally mentioned kangaroos and koalas, which they were vaguely familiar with and they asked if they ran amok on all our streets. Then there was the time, after explaining I was an Aussie, I was asked where I learned to speak English because apparently I spoke it rather well. It makes me laugh just thinking about those two incidents.
Yes you are. I’ve already quoted you once, but here it is again:
What are you basing that on?
You got me on the Ellis Island thing, but claiming that American newspapers are better than English ones is ridiculous if your basing it on a comparison between the Sun and the International Herald-Tribune. Would you like me to make a similar comparison between the (London) Financial Times, Daily Telegraph or Guardian and the National Enquirer? If your only exposure to European press is a crappy tabloid you’ll just perpetuaute your own ignorance of it.
How does having an “international section on the front” make CNN comparable with BBC news? Have you ever watched BBC? I’m not going to claim the opposite point to the one you’re trying to make, but I will say that you’ve picked very bad examples to support your argument.
… See, this is where I’m off. I only saw the Herald-Tribune when abroad, and I thought it was a foreign paper.
Remind me to check commentary. Checking now.
Yes, in fact, it is foreign. Parisian, in fact. Just… owned by formerly the Post and now the Times. Where does that put it? And what is an equivalent British paper? I’m afraid most of them that come to mind are either tabloids or papers that have an equivalent in the States… The Observer?
As I recall, your complaint started with the lack of international news articles on TV. Without getting into slant… and believe me, the BBC is no angel there, I honestly believe that the general quality of reportage is almost equivalent between the BBC and CNN, as far as the websites go. That is, given an article about any one topic, they will be equally informative. CNN does tend to pick up things about six hours later, but I think that’s a time zone issue. Remember, not comparing BBC TV news with CNN. Comparing their web sites.
All TV news is fairly useless for hard detail.
Let’s see.
First, CNN’s home page.
U.S. forces raid Iraqi town
Hundreds of U.S. troops raid homes in the Iraqi town of Fallujah in a bid to find and destroy what they deem “illegal” weapons.
BARCA BATTLE
Club votes over Beckham deal
FAMILY MAN
Pinochet in retirement
MORE TOP STORIES
• Clashes in Gaza during rocket hunt | Cease-fire talks
• Mecca clashes kill 10 - report | Attacks gallery
• Myanmar promises to free Suu Kyi
• Police foil N. Irish ‘bomb attack’ | Special report
• Czechs celebrate EU ‘yes’ vote | Changing Europe
• Hopes for Liberia cease-fire | Profile | Video
• Fifth night of Tehran protests
• Suicide after mother has girl
WORLD BUSINESS
• Europe trips on U.S. data | Wall St. slips | Japan higher
• SK duo get jail sentences | Daimler lawsuit closer
KILLING ZONE
Liberia’s downfall
On the front line in Liberia’s civil war
LIFT-OFF
No U.S., MIGs - but hope
Paris Airshow gains cheer from Airbus orders
• French attacked in Congo
• Serb arrest ‘will unlock aid’
• Draft EU constitution is agreed
• Koreas connect after 50 years
• Cracks found in Three Gorges Dam
• Mecca clashes kill 10 - report
• Ex-dictator stoned during campaign trip
• TIME.com: Sharon: Politics of a word
• Remains believed to be missing boy
• Swimmers brave chill for river marathon
• Ranch hand kills one, injures six at bar
• Air show rolls out in Paris
• Europe trip on poor U.S. data
• HK airport traffic slumps
• Singapore Air mulls low-cost route
• Another reason to throw out your VCR
• FBI: Cell phones rigged to trigger bombs
• KSC director transferred
• Calif. government to nix SUV purchases?
• Furyk leads U.S. Open after round 3
• Barca members begin voting for new president
• The name’s Moore, Sir Roger Moore
• Luther Vandross out of intensive care
From our Partners
• Pakistan: Law of the land
• Myanmar: General Strike
• Can one generation fix Japan?
• Arafat’s Still There
• Europhobia
• The Age of Arthritis
REBUILDING IRAQ
Life after war
Iraqi people struggle to put society and daily lives back together
VIDEO
Amid a bloody civil war Liberian President Charles Taylor says he wants to stay in power until his term runs out.
Should international war crime charges against Charles Taylor be dropped if it ensures he stands down from the Liberian presidency?
Yes
No
Now, the BBC.
Last Updated: Sunday, 15 June, 2003, 14:33 GMT 15:33 UK
Reporter given job at Huntley jail
An inquiry is launched into how a newspaper reporter got a job at the jail holding Soham murders suspect Ian Huntley.
Huntley heads back to prison
Huntley denies Soham murders
Soham vicar receives MBE
US forces raid Iraqi flashpoint town
The man at the centre of the government’s controversial reshuffle defends the way it was carried out.
OTHER TOP STORIES
Large van bomb intercepted
US ‘will not waver’ on Mid-East
Man shot in ‘row over hedge’
Denis Thatcher back in hospital
Rowers back on home soil
Prince in ‘road rage’ chase
ALSO IN THE NEWS
Posties fear the new Harry Potter book may prove a burden
Roddick races to Queen’s title
F1: Williams target second win
Football: Barca fans go to polls
Roadmap block
Where players in Middle East stand after latest violence
‘We want freedom!’
Iranians e-mail the BBC with their views of the protests
Get it while you can
Wallpaper your desktop the Lord Chancellor way
AROUND THE WORLD NOW
AFRICA
New Liberian ceasefire appeal
ASIA-PACIFIC
‘No date’ for Suu Kyi release
AMERICAS
Cuba honours Comrade Che
EUROPE
Czechs say ‘Yes’ to EU entry
MIDDLE EAST
Seven killed in Saudi clashes
SOUTH ASIA
UN rejects Afghanistan criticism
AROUND THE UK NOW
ENGLAND
Devon rower sets record
NORTHERN IRELAND
Three to face murder charges
SCOTLAND
Scotland Office ‘still exists’
WALES
Safety plea after two biker deaths
MORE FROM BBC NEWS ONLINE
BUSINESS
Airbus overtakes Boeing on deliveries
POLITICS
Croatia camp ‘for UK refugees’
HEALTH
Drug could protect unborns from alcohol
EDUCATION
School leaders get top honours
SCIENCE/NATURE
Minister hints at missions to planets
TECHNOLOGY
TV appeal for virtual warriors
ENTERTAINMENT
Peck public memorial date set
HAVE YOUR SAY
Cabinet reshuffle: Your reaction
007 ‘ashamed’
Sir Roger Moore sorry for ignoring poverty while playing Bond
Unlikely diplomat
Why Woody Allen is on a mission to heal the US-French rift
VIDEO CHOICE
Body double for Saddam’s son tells of life of intrigue
1996: Bomb blast in Manchester
Device injures hundreds in busy shopping area
Seems about the same percentage of foreign and domestic news. Down to “Man shot in row over hedge” and “Drunken Ranchhand starts barfight”
