# Are Americans losing it with Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553 "2015-12-28T10:25:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/381 "2016-01-01T02:07:20Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Wrong Muslims have no need to fear the police in the UK and they know it Spoken like a member of the establishment, of course. 😉 It is quite common for people fleeing authoritarian regimes to presume that all power is authoritarian and arrayed against them. That you fail to recognize that indicates only that you have no genuine experience with such people. For that matter, there is no particular reason for anyone to believe that they have no need to fear the police. You may not be aware of [this sort of behavior](http://qz.com/259044/britain-has-a-police-brutality-problem-too/), but you may be assured that the majority of low-income and immigrant people are not merely aware of it but that they believe it to be the norm. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/382 "2016-01-01T02:08:32Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Really? Those are the only options? > > Is it even remotely possible that a lot of people are wary of demonizing Muslims, or Islam in general? That they believe doing so is not only factually but morally wrong? That they believe that Islamic terrorism is evil but is not representative of Islam as a whole? That they feel it’s important to remember that a human propensity for evil transcends religion or culture, even when it is informed by them? > > Sure, maybe they’re wrong. But your false dichotomy isn’t particularly helpful when it comes to understanding where the people with whom you disagree are coming from. > > I get your frustration. Honestly, I do. But this is exaggerated to the point of nonsense. That’s the sad thing. I don’t have to exaggerate even a little. The SDMB is filled with people who can’t or won’t condemn Islamic terrorism without bringing up Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps. I wish that I WAS creating a straw man, but this very thread proves my point in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/383 "2016-01-01T02:10:48Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That’s the sad thing. I don’t have to exaggerate even a little. The SDMB is filled with people who can’t or won’t condemn Islamic terrorism without bringing up Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps. I wish that I WAS creating a straw man, but this very thread proves my point in spades. I condemn all terrorism. You seem to think some terrorists are worse than others. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/384 "2016-01-01T02:16:19Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That’s the sad thing. I don’t have to exaggerate even a little. The SDMB is filled with people who can’t or won’t condemn Islamic terrorism without bringing up Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps. I wish that I WAS creating a straw man, but this very thread proves my point in spades. How is it a strawman when people are claiming that terrorism is a problem cause by or mostly exclusive to people of the Islamic faith. Can you please address that in some way vs just purely hand-waving away cites that do not fit your stance? ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/385 "2016-01-01T02:25:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I condemn all terrorism. You seem to think some terrorists are worse than others. They all deserve to hang, but best to give them life in prison so they contemplate their complete and utter failure from there as the decades go by and their lose their teeth one by one. Xenophobia really sucks. I wish people realized that the vast majority of muslims have indeed become de-facto police informants, exactly what you’d expect a good guy to do. They should also realize that muslims get killed by terrorists more frequently than non-muslims, and that they hate islamic terrorists twice as much because not only do they kill them, but they smear their religion (which is a big no-no), cause them shame by association and make things difficult for them in the world. :eek: The urge to scapegoat is just too strong, I think. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/386 "2016-01-01T02:30:43Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > That’s the sad thing. I don’t have to exaggerate even a little. The SDMB is filled with people who can’t or won’t condemn Islamic terrorism without bringing up Eric Rudolph or Fred Phelps. I wish that I WAS creating a straw man, but this very thread proves my point in spades. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I condemn all terrorism. You seem to think some terrorists are worse than others. Remind me, how many people did Fred Phelps kill? I personally think that terrorists who blow up buildings and vehicles and shoot people are worse than those who make asses of themselves picketing funerals
 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/387 "2016-01-01T02:49:28Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Remind me, how many people did Fred Phelps kill? I personally think that terrorists who blow up buildings and vehicles and shoot people are worse than those who make asses of themselves picketing funerals
 The RIRA has killed way more than Islamic terrorists in the UK. But you are still ducking the question, why are Islamic terrorists worse than non Islamic terrorists? Or are you just resorting to special pleading to support a xenophobic debate position? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/388 "2016-01-01T03:05:26Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Remind me, how many people did Fred Phelps kill? Fred Phelps is an amateur. [Anti-abortion violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence) > [@](#): > > Murders > > In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort; Seven murders occurred in the 1990s. > > 
 > > Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping > > According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,[11] 100 butyric acid attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats,[12] and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[I 16] Between 1997 and 1990 77 death threats were made with 250 made between 1991 and 1999 .[11] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[I 1][I 17][I 18] IN 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity. > > 
 > > Arson, bombing, and property crime > > According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid (“stink bombs”).[I 16] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 andand 1993.[I 22] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio. > > 
 > > Anthrax threats > > The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the “anthrax” in these cases was real. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/389 "2016-01-01T03:06:06Z")
Cite that in the US most terror attacks and deaths are not Islamic based [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0) Evidence that even when White Christians are caught in terrorism plots that they just go free, no water boarding or gitmo for whitey!!! [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/robert-doggart-indicted\_n\_7744168.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/07/robert-doggart-indicted_n_7744168.html) Please come back with some cites to justify the xenophobic stance that Islamic terrorism deserves no comparison to Christian terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/390 "2016-01-01T03:17:20Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, a police officer, two people (unclear of their connection), and a clinic escort; Seven murders occurred in the 1990s. [/QUOTE] So, fewer than Islamists have killed this month. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/391 "2016-01-01T03:49:23Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So, fewer than Islamists have killed this month. Note that you had to limit it to a month, is there some moral high ground in intentionally ignoring that Anti-abortion extremist Scott Roeder killed 3 on Nov 29th? It seems odd to resort to small differences in body count and time especially when Roeder would have killed more given the chance. It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that when the pain is still very fresh in the minds of the victims from the latest US Christian terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/392 "2016-01-01T03:58:57Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note that you had to limit it to a month, is there some moral high ground in intentionally ignoring that Anti-abortion extremist Scott Roeder killed 3 on Nov 29th? It seems odd to resort to small differences in body count and time especially when Roeder would have killed more given the chance. > > It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that when the pain is still very fresh in the minds of the victims from the latest US Christian terrorist attack. Sorry I meant Robert Dear, it is hard to keep all these shooters straight. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/393 "2016-01-01T04:22:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Note that you had to limit it to a month, is there some moral high ground in intentionally ignoring that Anti-abortion extremist Scott Roeder killed 3 on Nov 29th? It seems odd to resort to small differences in body count and time especially when Roeder would have killed more given the chance. Huh? Islamist violence in the last month killed more than the eleven killed in anti-abortion violence cited in post 388. I didn’t ignore anything, there was no limit on the time-frame of anti-abortion violence whatsoever. > [@](#): > > It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that when the pain is still very fresh in the minds of the victims from the latest US Christian terrorist attack. There is no gaming of any numbers on my part. If anything is a “low tactic” is the what-about-ism that plagues every attempt at a discussion about the ongoing global Islamist insurgency. In America we have a horrible problem of violence against health care providers carried out by those motivated by opposition to abortion. Surely you can see the problem with Islamist violence, since it has taken more lives _just this month_, and hundreds of times as many lives overall. How much worse does it have to get before we can have this conversation without the constant stream of idiotic injections of “yeah but, yeah but, yeah but Fred Phelps said he hates fags!”. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/394 "2016-01-01T04:28:43Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Huh? Islamist violence in the last month killed more than the eleven killed in anti-abortion violence cited in post 388. I didn’t ignore anything, there was no limit on the time-frame of anti-abortion violence whatsoever. > > There is no gaming of any numbers on my part. If anything is a “low tactic” is the what-about-ism that plagues every attempt at a discussion about the ongoing global Islamist insurgency. > > In America we have a horrible problem of violence against health care providers carried out by those motivated by opposition to abortion. Surely you can see the problem with Islamist violence, since it has taken more lives _just this month_, and hundreds of times as many lives overall. > > How much worse does it have to get before we can have this conversation without the constant stream of idiotic injections of “yeah but, yeah but, yeah but Fred Phelps said he hates fags!”. Provide cites with numbers, you ignored the cites that were offered that proved your position as wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/395 "2016-01-01T04:47:41Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Provide cites with numbers, you ignored the cites that were offered that proved your position as wrong. WTF are you even talking about? I responded to a post quoting a cite which stated “In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people”. My response was “So, fewer than Islamists have killed this month”, [which is a fact](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html). Eleven is fewer than fourteen. ---
**Author:** ![EarthWarrior78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f1d935/32.png) [@EarthWarrior78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarthWarrior78)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/396 "2016-01-01T04:49:50Z")
Hi urbanredneck,I think everyone is taking the Muslim thing too far myself. My own fiancĂ© says that all Islamist are evil because its the teachings of the individual religion. I say its bullcrap. If a group of Baptist church goers drink poison and hold rattlesnakes that doesn’t mean all Baptists will. Not all Catholics are child rapist and sleep with hookers. Right? Islam is a religion of Peace and love,as is most. Christian Bible Prophets talk about stoning and murdering sinners all through out the Bible. All religions are based on the same characters and stories,only change is the language and the interpretation. Dont blame all Muslims for the actions of others ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/397 "2016-01-01T04:52:52Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > WTF are you even talking about? I responded to a post quoting a cite which stated “In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people”. My response was “So, fewer than Islamists have killed this month”, [which is a fact](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html). Eleven is fewer than fourteen. Those numbers are old, Less than two weeks before that attack, this happened. [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/02/us/robert-dear-planned-parenthood-shooting.html) And I provided cites that non-Islamic terrorist attacks have been more common and more deadly for at least the past decade. But if you are not on the side, arguing that Muslims are some how more violent due to the fact that they are Muslim you may want to state so. Your tit for tat stats make it look like you are attempting to justify islamophobia. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/398 "2016-01-01T05:02:39Z")
> [@EarthWarrior78](#): > > Hi urbanredneck,I think everyone is taking the Muslim thing too far myself. My own fiancĂ© says that all Islamist are evil because its the teachings of the individual religion. I say its bullcrap. If a group of Baptist church goers drink poison and hold rattlesnakes that doesn’t mean all Baptists will. Not all Catholics are child rapist and sleep with hookers. Right? Islam is a religion of Peace and love,as is most. Christian Bible Prophets talk about stoning and murdering sinners all through out the Bible. All religions are based on the same characters and stories,only change is the language and the interpretation. Dont blame all Muslims for the actions of others Exactly, for every ISIS there is a Phineas Priesthood. The problem is extremism and a dehumanization of those whom were born into or converted to a different mythology. The one unifying them across these terrorists tends to be an extremely vitriolic hatred for those whom do not happen to fall in line with one particular world view. That has been my whole point, do not vilify huge groups of peace loving people who do not share your beliefs just because a small number of true believers are willing to commit violence in the name name. This is why the name of Fred Phelps is invoked so often, it is that hate that is the root cause not which book they find most holy. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/399 "2016-01-01T05:17:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Those numbers are old, > > Less than two weeks before that attack, this happened. I was responding to a particular sentence. You know, the one I quoted, and then quoted to you again. And the addition of the three people murder by Robert Dear still only brings it to the same number as were killed in one single attack less than a month ago. [And you have the nerve to say](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-victims-htmlstory.html) "It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that when the pain is still very fresh in the minds of the victims "? 😕:eek: > [@](#): > > And I provided cites that non-Islamic terrorist attacks have been more common and more deadly for at least the past decade. You mean the one that starts counting right after Islamists murdered 3000 people? And then you have the nerve to say "It is a pretty low debate tactic to game the numbers like that " 😕:eek: > [@](#): > > But if you are not on the side, arguing that Muslims are some how more violent due to the fact that they are Muslim you may want to state so. Your tit for tat stats make it look like you are attempting to justify
 Do you know what irony is? A tit for tat stat strategy is the only reason we are even discussing anti abortion violence or the set of all non-Islamic terrorism in a thread about people’s negative reactions upon seeing a niqab. > [@](#): > > islamophobia. A phobia is an irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about having negative feelings towards the ideology that the niqab symbolizes, when that ideology contains so many horribly brutal and oppressive components, and so many have died and suffered and continue to suffer under it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553/400 "2016-01-01T05:22:43Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > A **nd what have you done to stop the RIRA bombings,** Planned parenthood shooting or our own governments assassination of women or children? Huh? Is he Irish? I thought he was British. What’s the point of the reference to the RIRA if he’s not? Is it in regards to the members to he RIRA being White or something else? If so, what is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-americans-losing-it-with-muslims/741553.md?page=21)